Unusual Small Blade Id (Non-Traditional?)

[dominnimod]

A couple weeks ago i received my first blade,a meiji mumei bare tanto in deplorable conditions with a lot of active rust.First i made a shirasaya(very weird looking   )Then ,after some cleaning i managed to remove the red rust.After asking in general forums it doesn't seem to be traditional so i post it here to see if someone recognize what it is exactly.Its main pecualiarities are:

-Size:nagasa 16cm

-Shape:shinogi zukuri

-Diferentially hardened(has hamon)

-Has no edge(can't cut paper)

 

Some wild ideas we got are that it could be a ww2 pilot tanto, or part of a broken huge sw ord(the heavier a sword is,the less edge it needs) ,or a boy's sword.Any help is appreciated.Thanks

 

[ggil]

we would need measurements to understand what the actual size of the thing is, or maybe placing objects of known size next to it as you take pictures.  All I can tell is that has signs of being forged (weld openings).  it is in really bad shape as you say.  It looks like it has been hit with a wire-brush wheel at some point.  What is left of (shows signs of amateur polish/destruction) the edges seems sadly mistreated, so that (if I am right) it will never be quite like it was when it was made, if for some crazy reason someone wanted to try and bring it back to life professionally (a Trained Japanese Polisher).  Hard to say anything else without measurements; and even then, given the state of polish. 

 

Probably best you continue your education with something that will leave you with less conjecture, but rather more learning.  You need to study the best blades or books.  I know, you are probably like me and can't afford nice blades, but maybe there is a club you can go to and see some really nice blades with known history. 

 

Good Luck!  I think the people around here with knowledge about nihonto (not me BTW) are probably tiring of seeing this blade by now, at least without something new coming from you (like measurements or better pictures). 

 

-Grant

[Kai-Gunto]

Why do You ask again?

[lonely panet]

nothing to evan bother posting.

I now we all have to start some were, BBBUUUUTTTT this isn't a hidden gem.

 

there is also nothing you can learn from this piece, apart from what "not" to buy next time. you may find it attractive or pleasing to own, but at the end of the day

all you own is a rusted knife that may or may not come from Japan. none of the required feature are evan visable.

 

best of luck with your next buy, if you continue to collect, I would suggest buying something is good condition, that can be easy identified as a Japanese sword, it does require a lot of money to start off, you can find lower quality items on fleabay for under 1000

[ggil]

If you are willing to spend some real time scouring over ebay, there are some decent items once in a while for great deals.  I found this tanto (actually small wakizashi length) for $550.  The lines of the nakago are so beautifully cleanly done, and the shape I find to be very elegant.  It also has an extra facet in the mune (mune-machi).  Also the laquer work on the saya is stunning:  There is no way to reproduce it without knowing the technique: no machine or skilled hand could do it, I think.  I have even seen katana length blades going for around this amount, but being in good enough condition to enjoy and research if desired. 

 

Just make sure the seller has a return policy, or makes it known if the blade is too tired or has fatal flaws.  It is risky buying on ebay!  I got a wakizashi for $400 and the blade turned out to be WAY polished down.  When communicating the issue with the seller and asking how this blade could possibly be listed "good condition," he told me he owns 400 blades or something like that.  Now my case was made that he was trying to fraud me!  He knew exactly what was going on with the blade and intentionally left out pictures of the nakago vs blade thickness, and also didn't mention the kasane measurement, I started a case and the seller was actually very gracious about the return.  Ebay is very buyer friendly these days.  If the description contains much, you can usually find something wrong in it that will allow you to get a refund.  Don't discount fleabay because of treasures show up there, and even some very knowing collectors frequent ebay for the good deals you find there from time to time.  IT IS RISKY though. 

 

-Grant

[dominnimod]

Why do You ask again?

I wanted to change it from category because i think it fits this one better,but i don't know how to remove past posts 

[dominnimod]

we would need measurements to understand what the actual size of the thing is, or maybe placing objects of known size next to it as you take pictures.  All I can tell is that has signs of being forged (weld openings).  it is in really bad shape as you say.  It looks like it has been hit with a wire-brush wheel at some point.  What is left of (shows signs of amateur polish/destruction) the edges seems sadly mistreated, so that (if I am right) it will never be quite like it was when it was made, if for some crazy reason someone wanted to try and bring it back to life professionally (a Trained Japanese Polisher).  Hard to say anything else without measurements; and even then, given the state of polish. 

 

Probably best you continue your education with something that will leave you with less conjecture, but rather more learning.  You need to study the best blades or books.  I know, you are probably like me and can't afford nice blades, but maybe there is a club you can go to and see some really nice blades with known history. 

 

Good Luck!  I think the people around here with knowledge about nihonto (not me BTW) are probably tiring of seeing this blade by now, at least without something new coming from you (like measurements or better pictures). 

 

-Grant

About the edge thing,the habaki fits it perfectly,and the edge has file marks,thats the thing and my concern,it doesnt seem to ever been sharpened

[Kai-Gunto]

.No value , if it ever was a Japanese sword ,its destroyed

[MAXBLISS888]

Welcome to the hobby...

[Brian]

I think you may have been right about the "made for a doll" theory.

[obiwanknabbe]

Brian, 

I think the doll theory is correct as well.. I have seen these before. Turn of the last century tourist trade item. Scaled down samurai dolls complete with little swords.

 

If i recall there was one of these little blades discussed a few years ago (that was in much better condition), but i cant find the thread. 

 

Kurt

[dominnimod]

I think you may have been right about the "made for a doll" theory.

I think i will simply dump this one to the sea,too much headaches xD,

now i have another blade,a mumei koto-shinto nagamki naoshi that just found to have some markings,like

4 straight horizontal lines,any ideas what do they mean?military markings?or it began to be signed and for some reason it wasn't finished, Thoughts?

[Grey Doffin]

The number 22?  Possibly to keep track at an armory, but earlier armory than WWII.

Grey

[manfrommagnum]

There are two remaining possibilities. The first is a boys day tanto. Second is a culinary knife made as a sword. It would be interesting to see if it has a hada, and the type.

 

Mike

[Bruce Pennington]

I recall reading about guntos that were cut in two after the war. What if an enterprising craftsman took the pointy ends and made this?

[dominnimod]

I recall reading about guntos that were cut in two after the war. What if an enterprising craftsman took the pointy ends and made this?

Yeah,read that too,war period militar production swords that stayed in Japan were cutted down and sword owning was controlled after war,however,this blade's seems older than ww2 and has no edge

[Bruce Pennington]

Another option is the child sword mentioned in Dawso pg 70:

[Jean]

Brice,

 

This one looks longer. Why is the mekugi ana so low on the nakago? No I am not convinced. A boy's sword was not only a piece of Iron.

[dominnimod]

I have made a sketch to illustrate some things of the blade that might be unperceptible from photos to see if this could por some light into the investigation.Left side hamon is not visible so i didn't draw it

[Jean]

I think Brian is right, probably a doll one. Compare its length to a kogatana. It is what I would call a "toy" sword. Non traditionally made.