Kantei For Fun

[Jacques D.]

Jean @

 

You are misleading my thoughts.

 

My thought was the following. I know this tanto for a *long time* so it's very easy for everybody to *kantei* it (Google is your friend). I ask what kind of paper because on the site i showed you,  it had no paper and i know you wouldn't buy a sword not papered.

 

I add it's not really fair and by a moderator. publishing a private message.  I don't worry about that i know what you really are..

[SAS]

I am in awe of Tanobe Sensei's sayagaki as a work of art in itself.

[Darcy]

Just because it can be dug up in Google doesn't mean it's not a useful exercise.

 

It's the guy who immediately assumes that everyone else is going to cheat that has the mind you have to worry about. People that knew the blade (self included) obviously didn't participate so it all worked out fine. I even told Jean my own call would have been Uda, I see no way to devalue this opinion since it would be saying that people see the similarity to Norishige but also the differences and the general color and look of that blade seem to point to Uda. I thought Uda would be a good answer and the true answer very hard to get.

 

It's just for fun, for learning, for sharing a nice and rare piece and to give us a concrete thing to have a discussion about as enthusiasts. It doesn't have to be worries about who will self promote, and whether or not the riddle can be cracked by cheating.

 

In terms of wrapping yourself in the victim shroud and in defense of Jean, the thing is, you have a bad past on this board and you don't play well with others. If you poke someone in the eye in a PM and it gets disclosed, well, you kind of asked for it. Don't poke people in the eye and probably they're going to roll along with you on the honor system. Which eye it was doesn't matter so much as the poking.

 

It's always a big difficult thing for some people to realize, between you and one or maybe two other famous guys who think that the board is a place for them to whip it out and let it rain all over anyone and everyone and yet themselves to be above the powers of moderation and content control... citing Honor or Free Speech... well ultimately the truth is that you reap what you sow.

 

Don't like the results? Sow different seeds.

[paulb]

What I  find sad is having promoted kantei (which at the end of the day is always for fun not competition or one upmanship ) as a fantastic learning tool it should degenerate in to bickering. Franco's comments were valid and aimed at enhancing future episodes I hope mine were seen in the same light.

What I fail to understand is when  people  put effort in to  help increase understanding there are  others who stand swiping from the sidelines. There is no positive contribution just bitterness and negativity. I have witnessed so many good minds being turned off by such activity it really is very frustrating.

Accurracy and objectivity are essential so sometimes saying something negative is the right call but being negative in an attempt to appear more knowledgeable or superior has no place and adds no value to any discussion.

 

BTW I also went down the Norishige-ish route and think Iwould have taken sometime to get round to the right answer so congratulations to those that did.

[Brian]

The brief sideline towards negative stuff is over. Let's get back on topic and not make a huge deal of something that is best just ignored.

We were having fun, no need to pause.

[Kronos]

I also went straight for Norishige but didn't get around to taking a serious look or submitting a bid.

 

Props to those that got Dozen/Atari without any hints as it looked a hard one.

[Ray Singer]

Before bidding Senjuin, I was the one incorrectly went with Jitsua. I have seen/handled a couple of pieces which had a jihada that seemed consistent with the work in Jean's sword. Jitsua attributes include a suguha-based hamon with an indistinct nioi-guchi, blackish jigane with strong, flowing itame and a deki that appears rustic (outside the mainline). I steered away from Norishige and Ko-Uda based on Tanobe's comments in the sayagaki. A suguha hamon lacking in brightness is not a trait of Norishige. A date of 1301 would I believe also be too early for a smith from the Ko-Uda school. There additionally did not appear to be a mitsumune, though I am not certain that is correct based on the angle we can see in the photos.

 

As far as why Senjuin, there are two mainline Yamato schools which seem similar to or at times mistaken for early Soshu: Taema and Senjuin. The fact that I am very familiar with a Juyo Senjuin wakizashi that Kanzan previously attributed to Norishige is probably why I bid Senjuin after Jean gave the hint pointing to the Yamato mainline. A very challenging and fun exercise. Thank you again Jean.

 

Regards,

Ray

[CSM101]

If there wouldn´t be the hint with the signed and dated tachi, I´d had said Meiji.

 

Uwe G.

[Jean]

Very interesting Uwe. Japanese swordsmiths in Shinshinto or Meiji specialized in copying Koto, especially Kamakura and Nambokucho. I have seen good copy of Soshu blades and a splendid Ichimonji signed "-". But mekugi ana are drilled...

[Jean]

Just as a general information on this smith, here is what Honma Junji wrote in the Nihonto koza about him. You will see how rare are his works, not talking about tanto. It was almost impossible to find. You will see in this text the rating of this smith who has a Tokubetsu Juyo among the few swords bearing his mei.

 

Edit to add that nowadays, he is considered as a Senju'in smith.

[Darcy]

My own opinion is that things like this are treasure. 

[Jean]

Hi Darcy,

 

Do you know how many swords from this smith are juyo level or above (I am sure you have digitalized the zufu... )

[Jacques D.]

Jean

 

Maybe you are misreading but no tokubetsu Juyo only one is Juyo.

[Jean]

"There is a signed tokubetsu-juyo tachi (11th session, 1989) by Sukemitsu of which it is clearly stated in the zufu that he belonged to the Senju'in School. But at the time the blade got juyo in 1963, the NBTHK said that they don't know for sure to which school he belonged, although they knew he was a Yamato smith. They just say "probably Senju'in"....." Quote from a discussion with my friend Markus Sesko

 

Sorry Jacques as I told you in PM, he has some swords among the very few known which are Juyo or above.

[Markus]

I was talking at the same time and off the board with an owner of an ubu Senju'in tachi (nagasa 83.3 cm, sri 3.2 cm) and underlined, as Darcy indicated, the importance of those pieces. Everything that is earlier than mid-Kamura is extremely rare anyway and those early Yamato blades allow us, with a certain caveat, connect the dots back to the earliest indigeneous swordsmiths groups. As Jean pointed out via the quote from the Nihonto Koza, in Japan, experts like Honma link these early Yamato blades intuitively to the those indigeneous swords from the Shoso'in. So everything that pops up from that time that is like Jeans' tanto even signed is a true treasure. 

[Jean]

Game, set and match.

[Jean]

Darcy,

 

You can e-mail me your answer and I'll post it. Meanwhile I lock the subject, it is an open and shut case

[Jean]

Due to Markus courtesy, here is Sukemitsu's record:

 

"Looking through the references and not finding any mention of a designation, I tend to think that the 1301 tachi just doesn't have anything. It is only noted that it is preserved in the Tokyo National Museum. FYI, also Ogasawara dedicates Sukemitsu a paragraph in the Token no Bijutsu series (No. 137), aided by Honma and Sato. He introduces the 1301 tachi and the one that got later tokubetsu-juyo.

 

Checking the juyo, there are 4 that got juyo (of one later made it tokubetsu as mentioned). And 3 of the 4 are signed, the unsigned one (an o-suriage tachi that is now a waki with a nagasa of 57.9 cm) comes with a Den."

 

Not a bad result, considering that someone as Dr Honma Junji who have spent his life among swords has seen only three examples of his work one of which saiha.

 

I think that undoubtedly this smith has one of the best record if we compare its known existing blades and the ones which went Juyo or above, not mentionning the one that was considered enough important to be held by the Tokyo National Museum.

[Jean]

Due to Darcy courtesy, I am posting his reply showing the importance of this blade:

 

"I do have everything digital now and have been working on a project with about

5,000 hours in now. Markus has access to my project as he's been doing some

contributions. So when stuff is fact it's very easy for both of us to confirm this.

 

Studying the Juyo blades is just studying the best published discoveries of the last 60

years. Looking at them all is like having the eagle's perspective when everyone

else is thrashing around in the mud.

 

Ultimately being able to check them is what verifies a blade like your tanto is

so rare and precious. Any signed Yamato work of Nanbokucho and earlier has to be

held as particularly important as there are 318 that I've counted. This is

including quasi-Yamato stuff like Mihara and Mino Senjuin etc. Also including

things like Muromachi Yamato which is more commonly signed and not as important.

 

I think with the five core schools the number is around 130 or 140. So when you

have one you have something rare just on that basis.

 

Anyone can find a nice blade. There are a lot of nice blades out there.

Anyone can get a nice mumei Taema or mumei Yamato Shizu. There are many. But

some blades are the items that we need in order to piece together the bigger

picture. That's where things like this come in and those are the ones I try to

get for my website when possible.

 

Looking at the bigger picture and studying all the Juyo and Tokuju side by side

further hammers home the point that there are Juyo blades and then there are a

small sliver of these that stand apart for some reason. Because the average

Western collector (and even Japanese collector) doesn't have this perspective

they easily get lost in relativism, thinking that any two blades are equivalent

because they have the same paper or so on.

 

When you look at the numbers, there are more mumei Nagamitsu than there are

signed Yamato blades from the 5 schools, Nanbokucho and earlier. Though

Nagamitsu is held in high regard there is no way of knowing who made a Nagamitsu

(they are all talented students but the point is that Nagamitsu is basically a

brand name and the average westerner cannot tell the difference between the

master's work and one of the students). we have the same problem with Rai

Kunitoshi in that the NBTHK doesn't differentiate the various daimei works. If

someone studies and takes the time as I've done then the six signatures stand

out clearly. So we need to draw some conclusions from that. True master's work

should be elevated a bit among the daimei. But it's up to you to know what

you're looking at and why one Rai Kunitoshi may be more expensive than the other

(or why it may be a good deal). Again with the two Kunitoshi you have about

double the number of works in total as there are signed Yamato blades of

Nanbokucho and earlier.

 

I'm no huge fan of Yamato work on my own but there are standout blades and I

think when one is signed it doesn't need anyone to stand up and have to write a

lot about why it's special, it just is special on its own.

 

You should send the tanto for Juyo too of course. It's impossible to know if

anything can pass anymore. If it doesn't pass draw no conclusions just resubmit a couple

of times. There are a lot of people waiting on their second and third

submissions and dealers I think always get a certain chunk. Westerners tend to

submit then think it's over and retry again in 5 years and it means starting

from the back of the line.

 

Or just enjoy it as it is. People who understand swords will place this one with

the company it belongs in. You can find Juyo which are Muromachi period Kosori

pieces of junk that passed in the late 70s. Just because those weak smiths and

blades got Juyo doesn't make one of them better than this blade."

 

I enclose the Tokuju Sukemitsu picture