Was There Any Type Of Production Of Japanese Swords In Occupied Territories During Wwii

[Reddawn27]

Among my many hobbies one of them is collecting Japanese bayonets. Now as far as bayonets, there are at least two arsenals that were under Japanese control that were pressed into war time production outside of Japan. These were Jinsen in Korea and Mukden in Manchuria. Now in my first post someone had mentioned that one of the later war swords that I was looking at might of had parts made from an occupied area like the phillipines or elsewhere. However I have not found any info on occupied swords or sword part production. Now I cant see any blades being made outside of Japan, but maybe parts? Has anyone ever come across any published material or pdfs or links on if there was any Japanese sword production outside of Japan?

[Bruce Pennington]

Dominic,

 

The main reference I know about is in Fuller & Gregories Military Swords of Japan. I've read another reference that I will try to find. But here are the pages from F&G

[Reddawn27]

Sweet! Thank you Bruce for making the time and photo copies! I do not have this book but i have seen it! I shall add it to my books to get list. How acurate is his book? I would have never had thought Java would be a place of production... very interesting!

[lonely panet]

mantetsu swords

[george trotter]

If any were made in overseas territories in the Pacific or south-west pacific or east indies etc they would be very minor productions, probably very unprofessional affairs.

There were officially recognised "overseas" production facilities in Hokkaido, Taiwan, Korea, Manchukuo and China. These can be seen in the 'Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan' of 1942.

These include

Hagakure Tokenten (Hagakure sword shop) in Dalian, China.

Manshu Token Kabushiki kaisha (Manchuria Swords Co Ltd) Shinkyo (Changchun), China...see pic.

Fukuda Kendo (Fukudo Sword shop) Seoul, Korea.

 

I don't know what they made.

Hope this helps,

[Shamsy]

The final two wooden handled NCO swords were produced in Korea.

[Reddawn27]

There is this sword.. its supposedly Japanese, either super late war, foreign war time made, or a fake and this guy is wrong.. either way have a look...http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/Japanese/sword8.php

 

I did find this thread on the same sword, the the consensis is there Manchurian made for Japanese troops in China..http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/ww2-sword-305490-2/

[Reddawn27]

Also is the last Nco types you speak of Steve, do you mean the wrapped handle and the White handle types?

[Bruce Pennington]

Dominic, those are really cool! I've seen white wrapped tuska and white laquered cane wrapped saya; but that's the first white painted gunto I've seen!

 

As to Fuller & Gregory, it is a small book compared to Dawson's Swords of Imperial Japan, and was produced in 1987. Guys that are expert in WWII guntos say there is 'some' info in it that have since been found to be incorrect, but it is still a highly valuable source of info. It has some unique stuff not found in Dawson, too.

 

Java - I wasn't saying that it, or any other "field" sword making locations were official, but most nations had (and still have) people who make swords. If you lived in an occupied nation, during war, and were a swordmaker, you might have an interest, for the sake of making a living, in making swords/parts for the troops. Bradley's "Flyboys" points out that hundreds of thousands of Japanese army troops were litterally abandoned to survive off the locals in many Pacific locations. They had no supply lines, no food, no re-supply of ammo or weapons. If I were in their shoes, I would be getting my equipment repaired and/or replaced any way I could. I suspect some of the odd pieces we see on clearly official guntos came about this way.

[Shamsy]

Hi Dominic,

 

Sorry, I was in a hurry this morning so I wasn't able to properly elaborate. All three swords in the left picture. I often forget about the normal wooden handle with the bamboo scabbard (well the handle is lighter wood and wider than those produced in Japan ). These were all produced in Korea.

 

I've never seen a white 95 either. I would think it's been painted at some stage maybe by whoever captured or carried it. There are a few personalised 95's I've seen, painted or otherwise. There are also a handful of others that aren't recognised as official patterns, yet I've seen multiple examples. These include the vulcanised rubber scabbard examples.

 

Wonderful to see so many together. I've a special love of the NCO swords.

 

PS. Any chance you could take a high res picture of them all together for me? I'd like to have it for reference. Thanks!

[Stegel]

Bruce, there are 2 books by Fuller & Gregory, the one you refer to is the 1986 edition, a later 1996 edition(out of print) is better, with more info.

 

Steve, do you have any pics of the other un-recognised patterns and the vulcanised rubber scabbard examples, to show us??

 

The white painted versions, are winter camo. It is an off-white colour, and over the years i have seen quite a few.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve, I saw your byline. Have you been to Gunto Art Swords? He's got serial number 1114, copper handle for sale:

http://www.guntoartswords.com/010810.html

 

Stegel, thanks for the tip on F&G, I will find the newer one. Looking forward to reading it! Very fascinating about the winter cammo. Makes sense now that you mention it.

[Shamsy]

Ah, winter camo. That makes sense. I was thinking about it last night and considered medical corps, but that is a much more satisfying answer.

 

As to pictures, yes! Luckily I saved some of the model with the vulcanised rubber scabbard. Upon checking the embedded site url, still got the sword listed online (though sold). I've seen another one on eBay that was identical if memory serves, and maybe another, though this was a couple of years back. Three identical swords to me means pattern, if obscure.

[Shamsy]

Thank you Bruce. I've seen that sword but it's a bit too pricy and I'm really after one with matched numbers. Cheers for letting me know though.

[Stegel]

Thanks for the quick response Steve! It's the only one of its kind that i have seen!

[Stegel]

Bruce, here's a link with a reasonably priced copy of the later edition 1996.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Military-Civil-Swords-Dirks/dp/1574270621

 

 

The first picture is the cover of the 1986 edition, second is the 1996 edition.

 

Dawson's book is excellent, but the last F&G has lots of info which isn't found elsewhere. So the two complement each other IMO.

[Stegel]

Back to the OP and topic of this thread,  there was a lot of discussion over at Gunboards with this subject, opinion appears to be equally divided.

Here's a few links if you are interested :

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?473825-2nd-sword-what-is-it

 

and this one has pictures of Indonesian and Chinese collaborators with Japanese style swords:

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?385909-Senior-NCO-Sword&highlight=SENIOR+SWORD

 

Dominic, i've just seen this, it is IMO way over priced as a starting bid:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Katana-Sword-/162023361140?hash=item25b9584a74:g:EccAAOSwBnVW~Afg

[Reddawn27]

Wow! Nice work Stegel!! Its intersting to see that the diffrences in quality and the diffrent types! I wonder how may swords out there that have been seen as chinese junk, actully have some really historical value< I use the word value loosely.

 

Also I always forget as like id assume most americans that in some south east asian countries the japaese were viewed as liberatiors. Especially in indonesia under Japans Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.. were japans routing of Dutch and British forces was greatly welcomed and thus gave rise to groups like the Indonesian Pembela Tanah Air ground forces.

 

Also here is a blade that is supposedly from Java but thats still up for debate it looks like..http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/appraisal-some-Japanese-swords-please-sword-number-3-a-398208-2/

 

Also this, http://badikpusaka.blogspot.com/2014/01/my-katana-sword-from-peta-warriorheiho.html

 

I think this has sprouted into a very interesting thread!

[Bruce Pennington]

Thoroughly enjoying this!

[Shamsy]

I guess it counts so I'll throw it out there. The Dutch klewang naval cutlass the Japanese cut down were used as machete by the Japanese and to arm the indigenous sympathizers. They're also called hieho cutlass. I was fortunate enough to find a great example, but they're usually in poor condition and seem to be pretty uncommon.

 

http://www.thepirateslair.com/9-m1898-m1941-klewang-cutlass.html

[Reddawn27]

Dang Steve thats awesome! I never knew this, What a great read! Thank you! Suprising we havnt found anything from the philippines? I would have thougjt after the Japanese captured it, that there would have had been enough modern machinery there for at least some type of production.

[Shamsy]

There are a pattern in the later F&G that have a wooden handle. These are called emergency swords and I've seem a few variations but the same basic pattern. I've seen the with wrapping and also wire wrapped. F &G think they were made for non Japanese officers. Cannot find a picture but maybe when I have more time.

[Dave R]

On one of these threads a post challenged anyone to find a picture of a Chinese officer with a Shin-Gunto type sword. A bit late to post this there, so I put it here.

[Stegel]

Excellent photo Dave!!

German helmets, Sam Browne style belt......wow!

yes that poster, was not heard from again and never came good with his promise of handing over his gunto's !! Lol

 

Thanks for posting

[lonely panet]

hi Dave and Steve,

 

I have a photo, that I thought the soldier wasn't very Japanese looking. what do you think,

[Stegel]

I think he is Japanese, although, the longer i look at the picture, the more uncertain i become!!

I'll go with Japanese.

[Dave R]

Earlier pattern of uniform with leather gaiters, Japanese officer.

[lonely panet]

so the chinese that fought for the Japanese were issued different uniforms?

[Stegel]

Hamfish, my answer would have to be yes, or at least with different insignia and kit, as per the European theater.

The third photo shows Chinese Militia displaying their weapons with Chinese Nationalist Soldiers standing in the background.

The others are from Indonesia with PETA troops, who continued to fight another 4yrs to secure independance from the Dutch.

The third last photo is Indonesian school boy volunteers in training to form a volunteer unit for the Japanese.

 

I'm not a buff on uniforms as they are not my forte, but i think there are clear differences from the standard Japanese issue.

I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected if need be.

 

The photo you posted appears to me at least, as a proper 'early' issue Japanese uniform, as Dave said.

 

Daves photo is interesting in that it appears to be a concoction of different uniforms, German helmets mixed in aswell.

 

[General]

^{Hello all, Joshua introduced me to your forum and I thought I would post the sword being discussed on Gunboards here as well. Great debate as to whether it is a souvenir fake or perhaps manufactured  in occupied territories. I know very very little about these but it looks too good and someone went to a lot of effort to make it if it is simple a souvenir piece. for example the markings stampings on the tang and blade.}

^{So what is the opinion here? I am posting just some basic pics (to not waste bandwidth) t, if anyone wants more just let me know!!!}

 

^{Again here is the link to the post being discussed:http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?473825-2nd-sword-what-is-it&p=4150513#post4150513}

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the blade: