First Japanese Blade And Restoration Proyect

[dominnimod]

A couple weeks ago i received my first blade,a meiji mumei bare tanto in deplorable conditions with a lot of active rust.First i made a shirasaya(very weird looking  )Then ,after some cleaning i managed to remove the red rust and 'partially' make it shine.The problem is that it has some big black stains along the blade that doesn't come off(Under light they look red/dark brown)Any ideas of how to remove them?

Thanks

 

-Jose

[Fuuten]

First suggestion would be, try to find out if its worth doing anything. Second if the answer to #1 is yes, then let it be done professionally.

 

Then again i don't think this is worth much (after anyway).

[dominnimod]

First suggestion would be, try to find out if its worth doing anything. Second if the answer to #1 is yes, then let it be done professionally.

 

Then again i don't think this is worth much (after anyway).

Thats's why is a restoration project, where i invest my time to try to end with a good looking piece from a blade who most people would call junk and would't bother doing anything.

[ROKUJURO]

Josh,

in case this blade is longer than 30.3 cm, it is a KO-WAKIZASHI in SHINOGI-ZUKURI form. 

Restoring such a blade requires knowledge; it is not so important to polish it until it is bright but to restore the shape and the lines in the first place. For that you have to know what you have!

Don't try restoration at home, it will cause more damage than good. Keep it dry and oil it very lightly from time to time so that no oil gets into the SHIRA-SAYA.

Don't clean the NAKAGO other than with a dry cloth.   

[vajo]

Someone told me no polish is better than a bad polish.

[dominnimod]

Josh,

 

in case this blade is longer than 30.3 cm, it is a KO-WAKIZASHI in SHINOGI-ZUKURI form. 

 

Restoring such a blade requires knowledge; it is not so important to polish it until it is bright but to restore the shape and the lines in the first place. For that you have to know what you have!

 

Don't try restoration at home, it will cause more damage than good. Keep it dry and oil it very lightly from time to time so that no oil gets into the SHIRA-SAYA.

 

Don't clean the NAKAGO other than with a dry cloth.   

No,is much smaller than what it seems  ,the nagasa is actually like 15 or 16 cm,but yes,its has a shinogi zukuri shape and that's one of the main reasons why i bought it,it looks like a micro-katana 

[Jean]

Josh,

 

Check your books or the web and tell us how many tanto micro-katana you have seen...

 

Look at the mekugi ana and tell us is nothing strikes you

 

I hope you don't pay too much for it, but surely it is the case taking into account the pictures

[dominnimod]

Josh,

 

Check your books or the web and tell us how many tanto micro-katana you have seen...

 

Look at the mekugi ana and tell us is nothing strikes you

 

I hope you don't pay too much for it, but surely it is the case taking into account the pictures

Yep, i know its quite unusual,but i have seem some similar shapes from ww2 tantos(i found this one for example(same mekugi ana):

 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/La-Segunda-Guerra-Mundial-llevar-a-casa-japonesa-Officer-tanto-Kamikaze-knife-sword-Mira-/261981166334?_ul=AR&nma=true&si=ypJihtD9wCJN7hkKTlBAwM%252FNoFs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Also, the blade is diferentially hardened,it has hamon, and also file marks on the tang under the patina.It even has kizu like blister and shinae.

Looking at it in hand seems Japanese 100%,should i upload more photos?

[Jean]

Don't waste your time restoring it, these daggers are not worth it. Cheap ones not even made of tamahagane. Now instead of quoting e-bay, search  the web and look at tanto sugata. 

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/tanto

 

You won't see any of these swords papered. A sword made in Japan is not necessarily a Nihonto.

[dominnimod]

Don't waste your time restoring it, these daggers are not worth it. Cheap ones not even made of tamahagane. Now instead of quoting e-bay, search  the web and look at tanto sugata. 

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/tanto

 

You won't see any of these swords papered. A sword made in Japan is not necessarily a Nihonto.

Ah ok, i thought nihonto could refer to all traditionally made Japanese blade,but i guess this one is not. ಠ_ಥ

Now i will be out for a week,but when i return i think i will acid etch the blade to see the hamon. Even if it's not a quality blade,its still a nice tanto for 60$ ,right? 

[Brian]

Jean, I could be wrong, but I suspect this might be Nihonto, with a hamon. It looks like the one Roy L. had. Incorrectly called "Boy's Day Swords" and even smaller. I forget what their purpose was. But some are not terribly made, and have nakago like that.

I would advise against restoring it yourself. Get someone to polish a window and see if it is indeed forged.

 

Brian

[ggil]

Josh,

 

Not qualified to give advice on damaging antiques (sorry for the ramblings before)

 

People around here don't want to even think about home polishing, because they have seen too many examples of how wonderful art has been damaged. Home polishing simply means disgracing what they have come to love and honor.

 

I hope this helps,

 

-Grant

[Jean]

Maybe Brian, but hamon is only an indication of a tempered blade, it does not indicate if the blade is made of tamahagane or not thus a Nihonto (cf mantetsu blades) What is the most curious is the location of the mekugi ana. I would like to see of this sword could paper and if not why?

 

Josh,

 

Is it a nice tanto for 60$? No, it is not the question. The question is : is it a nice tanto for me? If yes, it is perfect. Being nice is not a matter of price but a question of taste. Not unlike wives

[Ed Harbulak]

Josh,

Your blade is extremely short and the nakago is going to be very difficult to hold if you do decide to do some restoration work yourself. I'd suggest making a wooden handle to attach to the tang so you have something to hold onto. That may also help keep you from cutting yourself. Personally, the blade reminds me of the broken tip from a longer blade that was converted to what it is now. For $60 you certainly didn't over spend and it might make a nice project. BUT, doing an even half way decent restoration is going to be difficult since my guess is you don't have the proper equipment or knowledge. Before you do anything other than oil the blade, you might want to consider purchasing the book entitled "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" for $28.35 from Amazon just to get an idea of what genuine sword polishing entails. Good luck, my guess is you will need it. Remember "haste makes waste", so take your time because a proper polishing job is going to take lots of time.

Ed 

[Dr Fox]

I see the word 'restore' being in frequent use in this posting. Restore to 'what'?.

Flat abrasive, sandpaper, acid etch and home polishing?

I have seen folks shot, for a lot less than this on here.

[drbvac]

Agreed - you can't etch a rough rusted blade and you can not polish nihonto with sandpaper - all it will do is remove rust and leave a sscratched metal surface even if you use 3000 grit wet paper - it may be very smooth but not even close to polished.

 

It will just look a different sort of bad - not like stone polished steel. You possibly could get a glassy reflective surface like you have on jewellery with a polishing compound but why I am even going on is beyond me - the results will be not what you think - the best will look like stainless steel polished with steel wool.

 

Either leave it alone or do whatever you want knowing in all liklihood it is not going to be worth any more or less anyway - like that nun that restored the frescoe in the church - remember that - I still laugh everytime I even think about it.

 

She was more pleased with the result than most art historians and at least the robe is all brown.

 

[dominnimod]

Maybe Brian, but hamon is only an indication of a tempered blade, it does not indicate if the blade is made of tamahagane or not thus a Nihonto (cf mantetsu blades) What is the most curious is the location of the mekugi ana. I would like to see of this sword could paper and if not why?

 

Josh,

 

Is it a nice tanto for 60$? No, it is not the question. The question is : is it a nice tanto for me? If yes, it is perfect. Being nice is not a matter of price but a question of taste. Not unlike wives

The tang actually has different shape in both faces 

And yeah,i really like the tanto,the shape overall ,but i noticed it haven't been sharpened by the lower part and neither much in the upper part of the blade,thous being tempered,

Maybe this blade was done for a Japanese doll or something like that?

[dominnimod]

Agreed - you can't etch a rough rusted blade and you can not polish nihonto with sandpaper - all it will do is remove rust and leave a sscratched metal surface even if you use 3000 grit wet paper - it may be very smooth but not even close to polished.

 

It will just look a different sort of bad - not like stone polished steel. You possibly could get a glassy reflective surface like you have on jewellery with a polishing compound but why I am even going on is beyond me - the results will be not what you think - the best will look like stainless steel polished with steel wool.

 

Either leave it alone or do whatever you want knowing in all liklihood it is not going to be worth any more or less anyway - like that nun that restored the frescoe in the church - remember that - I still laugh everytime I even think about it.

 

She was more pleased with the result than most art historians and at least the robe is all brown.

 

images (1).jpeg

xDD, that was hilarious,but my point is,if the blade is worth so little that no one is gonna bother restoring,i could at least give a try,right?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Josh, the point that everyone is trying to make is that this forum is dedicated to the preservation of Japanese blades!!  So please don't ask here if you should try to do anything to it.

 

Ken

 

[Brian]

xDD, that was hilarious,but my point is,if the blade is worth so little that no one is gonna bother restoring,i could at least give a try,right?

Wrong. Price does not condone home restoration. And how do you know no-one will bother restoring it? Someone will do a window, and if there is hamon and hada, then any decent polisher will polish it. If they tell you there is no hamon or hada...then go for it. Otherwise, just oil it and keep it for now. I think the "doll" idea is possible.

[e_v]

I try to add my half a cent (2 cents is probably too much ): I remember well a moment, in the first phases of my nihonto infatuation, when I wasn't sure of how much time/effort/money I would invest, but I really wanted to find a way to put my hands on a Japanese blade.

The so-called "project blades" seemed like an interesting shortcut: cheap, in poor condition, but original! I could imagine the story: a humble blade, worthless for everyone, but potentially a great experience for me: if only I could remove a little rust, just a little touch-up, without doing damage...

Then I learned a little more and realised that the problem with my fantasy did reside in that "without doing any damage": if you're not trained properly, whatever you do, you will ruin something unique. I agree with Ed: my suggestion is to grab a copy  of "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing". If you are here, you'll enjoy the book and, along the way, you'll understand that you don't really want to try things on your blade.

At that point you'll have a few options:

- enjoy the blade as it is

- ask a trained polisher to open a window

If the book will increase your desire of working with wet stones instead of sedating it, you could also look for someone willing to train you: in that case "project blades" would probably become your training ground. But this is only a confirmation that for now you should not touch the blade: even the humblest of the blades could become a training tool for someone who's investing an important part of his life learning old skills. I think this kind of story sounds way better than "Damn! I did my best but now it looks like a weird butter knife..."

[Jean]

I am afraid that the cost of the restoration will far exceed the blade value

[dominnimod]

Ok,thanks for all  ,also,it seems like i ignored the most obvious option as Ed said,could it be a broken older wakizashi/katana/tachi  reshaped into a tanto? That would explain the shape,not being very sharpened,the weird looking nakago,tha blade having hamon and hada and the mekugi ana.

I will follow your advise and store it oiled for now.

[Bruce Pennington]

Remember how many guntos were cut in two after the war? I wonder if some enterprizing young men took the blades tips and made what you have? I've never heard it discussed as a practise; but such things wouldn't have records.

[Chango]

I'm a neophyte Nihonto fan; being a (now former; I sold off my last chinese abomination last year) replica sword junky and knowing almost nothing about Nihonto I bought a  "junk" sword last year with the intention of working on it myself as a hobby.

 

That sword turned out to be from a fairly high-end Kanbun era smith; the good folks of this forum turned me in the right direction, convinced me to wait until I had the $$ to do it right and now that sword is finally  going in for professional restoration very soon.

 

If I had stuck with my original plan, I would have been responsible for the destruction of an irreplaceable piece of history and now that I know more I would never have forgiven myself!

 

It's true that many swords are currently deemed worthless and/or unrestorable... but that's today, and judging an item solely by today's values is hopelessly short-sighted. Who knows, in another 100 years a rusty old Ebay blade could be museum-worthy depending on what happens in the future! After all, there aren't many "restorable" original viking swords but that doesn't make one any less valuable. Remember, many amazing, priceless and irreplaceable Nihonto were a dime a dozen in 1946; times change! Even Gunto swords are highly collectable now and have their place in history.

 

In other words, if you're feeling crafty, get a modern, non-Japanese blade to work on. Save the actual nihonto (even the bad ones) for trained experts and/or future generations. 

[Greg F]

Bravo Jason well done and good post. Cheers.

 

Greg