Fs: 2 Tsuba

[kaigunair]

These are two tsuba I purchased directly from a seller back in 2014.  I purchased them with certain guarantees and promises that they would paper a certain way, and had him send them in for NBTHK papering directly.

 

Tsuba #1: Ono School tsuba including NBTHK papers.

I purchased this looking for a solid ko-akasaka study piece and example.  He promised that this one would paper ko-akasaka, with a side bet that it would paper to the 2nd or 3rd akasaka master.  Papers came back Ono school, but he insists the shinsa team was incorrect and that it should be an early akasaka  master.  I paid $1200 plus cost of shinsa papers.  Price:  $1000

 

[kaigunair]

Tsuba #2:  This tsuba was represented as a Haguro or buddist prayer bead.  It was guaranteed to paper "Hozon".  Like the first, it was submitted immediately to shina through the seller...and returned without papers.  he insists that the shinsa team got it wrong, that there is age in the form of soot on the tsuba from many years of exposure to candle dust filled air. I purchased this for $1500 but since it did not paper, it is most likely a modern made tsuba.  Price:  $500

 

[Guido]

... there is age in the form of soot on the tsuba from many years of exposure to candle dust filled air.

 

Are you serious?

 

And if they came with guarantees, why didn't you return them?

[lonely panet]

or just sell them on fleabay like you do with your photographs

[tokashikibob]

Wow,  I seem to remember a thread that was taken down about Kaigun's Tsuba's,  I'm guessing these were them?   After Stephen's experience a while back and this I may swear off tsubas for good.

[Brian]

Not so sure this is a for sale thread.
Please clarify why you didn't return them...
Otherwise, they need to be relisted as sale items without the back story. If you have an issue you are trying to work out, this is not the place for it.

[Brian]

Are you serious?

 

Actually, this is a valid and common indication of age when dealing especially with old guns...flintlocks and percussion pieces. They develop a certain thick coating and colouring that is from many years worth of exposure to old cigarette and pipe smoke, and it is hard to fake. I have a Tranter revolver that is entirely covered in this patina, and doesn't come off easily. In many cases, just looks "old" and even smells it.

I can see how a tsuba might get a certain patina from age and exposure to candle smoke or whatever they used back then. At least more-so than a modern piece. Not possible?

[Guido]

Not possible?

 

I guess it's just the residue of black powder smoke. Candle smoke?

[jlawson]

Gotta agree with Guido here. Brian it is not hard to fake at all specifically when using a candle and spending a little bit of time smoking and wiping down etc. I would not have believed it either Brian without seeing it done as I thought the same as you. 

[jlawson]

Also this doesn't seem to be much of a sales thread but rather a bash a seller's guarantees thread (specifically calling him out by name etc). It would seem that if there was a guarantee then that should have been handled by returning the items or getting a discount etc, don't think it should have been included in a for sale thread.

[Brian]

James, I am sure Ford would be able to tell us in great detail how simple it is to fake that old smoke/tobacco/age patina.
Yes..I know it can be done. However on standard pieces, it is seldom worth the effort, and often remains unconvincing.
I'm not saying this tsuba is old, or modern. I am saying that the patina/look/smell comment is not impossible, and would be used when deciding if something is modern.

 

On another note, I just realized we dealt with this issue already in 2014, with the whole buyer/seller disagreement.
It was eventually moved and closed.
Therefore I am not going to revisit this here. This is not a revenge site, or a blackmail site, or a place to try and discredit people. I have removed the seller 's name. If you want to know more, then pm Junichi. 2 Years later, this one is done. Sell the tsuba. Now is not the time to open grievances again.

 

This thread will be removed shortly and the items are welcome to be relisted as regular sale items.

[Ford Hallam]

Brian, James watched me do it

 

...and if I'd aged that rosary bead tsuba it would look properly old :-)

[kaigunair]

These tsuba are for sale, with prices listed and background given.  I am surprised at the editing.  I had thought that 2 years would be sufficient time for things to get properly resolved, but recent forum posts made me realize that was a false hope.  And it looks like being patient and considerate is not looked kindly upon when discussion a problem with an "esteemed" member...was never final and done on this side.   These two tsubas are for sale, lovely though they may be, because they leave an extremely bad bad taste in my mouth every time I go though my collection.  So I want to pass them on to someone who will enjoy them for the pieces they are and not the negative experience I associate with them.  It also helps to explain the greatly reduced prices.  The alternative would be to cut them up and scatter them to the wind.  I hope to find the former.

 

I hold that character is connect to a man's word, so here is my guarantee for the purchaser of either of these tsuba:  I guarantee 100%, forever, that these items are what I say they are.  Buyer has 7 days from date of deliver to return for any reason for a 100% refund of purchase price minus the cost of shipping but the item must be returned in its original condition as was shipped out (in the case of tsuba, no cleaning or polishing or messing with it).  If, however, something is not as I state it is, then the refund is 100% including full refund of any shipping costs.  Since I was not around when these items were made, in addition to the 7 day inspection, if at anytime in the future an item turns out to be something else beyond a reasonable doubt, say modern if I represented edo, then the 100% refund plus refund of shipping applies if the item is returned in the exact same condition as I shipped it to you.  This is guarantee that I also list in some for on the very rare times I ever list anything on ebay.  

 

Doesn't necessary apply for these two since one is papered and one is modern, but if I make a promise of papers for an nihonto/tosogu item that has none, that promise will lasts for 2 years after date of shipment and you will have to go through one of 3 dealers I personally approve of and know to be honest men, to have them papered in the condition I shipped it out to you (nihonto.com, tetsugendo.com, yakiba.com, perhaps a few others I trust) - a 3rd party to keep all parties honest and happy when the results come in.  I will not submit it, and you cannot submit it yourself.  If it comes back without papers when I said it would paper, I will also pay $100 towards your shinsa costs upon return of the tsuba in the same condition as shipped if no papers were issued.  I will pay 50% of the shinsa costs if the papers were issued differing from any explicit guarantee I make regarding what it will paper to, and the papers are included in the return.  If you keep the paper or don't want to return the item, then that is a different situation altogether.  Also this is the reason and need for the 3rd party shinsa submission.  

 

Hamfish - you sure it was me you bought your photos from?  Maybe I've sold a few jpn pilot photos in the 16+ years I've been mainly buying on ebay.  But my user name isn't kaigunair or kaigun-anything on ebay.  But if it was me, let me know if you have a complaint about any photos you bought - as I've made the same form of this guarantee as far back as 2005 if not earlier.  And BTW, you'd be the first as I've never had a complaint or anything I sold returned....but I've also mainly be a purchaser not a seller (I also have a bad habit of over packing and eating shipping costs).  Hamfish, if you've mistaken me for someone else, then perhaps an edit and apology would be appropriate.

[Brian]

This is a for sale post, and as such, no further discussion will be entertained. I will remove the whole topic tomorrow, and then it is up to Junishi to post them for sale without the 2 year old drama rehashed and beaten to death.