Akasaka tsuba

[huntershooter]

Certainly know precious little about tsuba. Came across this auction on e-bay: Akasaka tsuba (#270187680157)."Mid Edo", iron, no mei, "buy it now" $2250.00. This seems extraordinarily high. Is this tsuba something special?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0187680157

[Pete Klein]

OK -- I have to admit I like the line, 'Box not included -- only for display'. LOL!

[remzy]

you'd spend 2000+ on this tsuba and still not get a box????? O_O

[Bungo]

" The plate is fuly covered with a lot of sparkling NIE & this is a high grade Tsuba."

 

I have a few OLD iron tsuba with what I think above description applied.

Just never thought they could be called " nie "...............learn something new today.

 

milt the flying ronin

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The seller maybe just makes confusion between rust and nie i sniff the blond

[Brian]

Ok, here's my lowly 2c opinion on it, not being a tsuba guy (yet) this is just my gut feel.

Hopefully some of the other tsuba guys will chime in and give their opinion, although we already have Milt and Pete not seeming too excited by it.

 

I think the seller has a really nice tsuba there, in very nice condition. I think that the large sized tsuba fetch good money, and I seem to recall a discussion somewhere about nie on tsuba. Their being forged makes me think it is quite likely you can find nie on good pieces.

 

That all being said, I would take a guess that this is a very nice tsuba indeed, probably well worth the money, and if I had the cash, I would grab it.

 

Now hopefully someone can tell me how wrong or right I am

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Brian, you says :

 

Their being forged makes me think it is quite likely you can find nie on good pieces.

 

Nie implies a hardening, tsuba can be hardened? i thought that they always must remain soft and unbreakable.

[Bungo]

Brian,

I am not dissing the tsuba , just didn't realize one can describe the tiny granular surface texture of an old tsuba as " nie ".......I look at my old tsuba ( from Skip Holbrook and B. Stuart, both old timer iron dudes ), they are indeed " reflective ".

 

milt the flying ronin

[pcfarrar]

I am not dissing the tsuba , just didn't realize one can describe the tiny granular surface texture of an old tsuba as " nie ".......

 

There was a tsuba on a US dealers website that had chikei not so long ago.

 

PS. Milt if there is no nie on the tsuba you sold me can I have my money back :D

[Bungo]

PS. Milt if there is no nie on the tsuba you sold me can I have my money back

_________________

ONLY if you take care of the 4% paypal cut PLUS pay shipping PLUS all e-bay listing expense PLUS a very positive feedback.........

 

milt the flying ronin.

[Brian]

Moved to tosogu forum, as i would really like to see a discussion of whether tsuba are hardened and can show nie. I seem to remember a mention of this somewhere? Are some tsuba hardened after forging, and can you see nie etc occasionally?

 

Brian

[Bungo]

" Are some tsuba hardened after forging "

 

Early Hoan ? or Yamakichibi ( spelling ? ) ? early Tosho?

 

need those scholars that are into old wabi thingie........

drum roll........ where is ole trickie ( Rich Turner, that is ) ? :D

 

milt the flying ronin

[Brian]

Nie implies a hardening, tsuba can be hardened? i thought that they always must remain soft and unbreakable.

 

Jacques, I don't think this is necessarily so. The function of the guard is not really to prevent blade strikes, this is the job of the mune. So I don't think tsuba have to be soft. Also, we often hear about good tsuba that they "ring like a bell when tapped"

This would make me think that this harmonic ring must come from good tempering and quenching?

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

It seems to me that this is yet another example of marketing hype . The idea that a subtle effect seen on a polished sword blade could be discerned on an essentially rust based patina is streching it a bit. What next, utsuri in shakudo? :lol:

 

The notion of steel tsuba being hardened needs to be more critically looked at too. I'm sure, as Brian has said, we've all heard the "ring like a bell when tapped" story. However, almost any reasonably stiff metal can be hammered to a point where it will resonate and thus produce a tone when struck. This why bells are not made of hardened steel. So the sound a tsuba makes is no indication of it's actual hardness. Analyis of a number of 18th and 19th cent steel tsuba revealed them to be iron and to contain almost no carbon. These could not be hardened at all.

 

The whole idea of hardening tsuba bothers me on other grounds though. We harden tools to created a surface or edge that is more resistant to wear. Tsuba generally don't have to survive a lot of rubbing. They may need to be tough though but the tempering of steel to create such toughness would remove that hardness which we are led to believe produces a bell like ring.

 

Here we are also faced with the examples of many early iron guards. They are often either very thin of have lots material removed by piercing. I get the strong impression that neither strength nor toughness was a real concern of tsuba makers. If you consider classic Owari guards, which exhibit a great degree of piercing to the point that they appear to be quite delicate I'd suggest that having them hardened would make them far more likely to break if struck with any force. Much better to retain the tougher, unhardened state that resulted from the initial forging of the plate.

 

Guards of Yamakichibei may be an exception but I'd like to see some scientific evidence. Stories of Yagyu guards being pounded in a mortar to test them also fail to stand up to scrutiny.

 

Anyway, these are just the rambling thoughts of a "trumped up blacksmith" :D and will unlikely shake "the beliefs of the faithful"

 

regards to all, Ford

[Brian]

Great stuff Ford, exactly the kind of logic and discussion I was hoping for

What say the other iron enthusiasts?

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

I really liked Ford's write-up. I have questioned the use of 'nie' as a descriptive for some time now. As stated, these are martensite crystals produced by yakiire, heating and quenching, and makes no sense when applied to tsuba. I have several examples of Kanayama and a Yamakichibei and see no such 'nie' present from 'yakite shitate', or the melting of the surface which would not produce martensite anyway as the temperature is higher (a blade's surface is not melted in yakiire).

I have a feeling what is being seen is just the patina producing something by reflection off the fine, uneven and diffuse surface. This is conjecture offered as a possibility.

BTW -- I really don't like to comment on any legitimate ongoing auction or sale as to price/quality as I feel it is somewhat equivalent to looking over someone's shoulder who is negotiating a sale and making a counter offer or rendering an opinion which could influence the transaction. My feeling is if you don't know then stay away until you have sufficient experience to 'know the market'. It is different if you discuss something privately but is a tad questionable in a public forum. Just my feeling on the matter. Possibly a better approach would be a discussion of the factors which lead to relative values in the marketplace?

[John A Stuart]

I wonder if what some may erroneously call nie in tsuba could be the difference in steel used. I have seen high carbon steel in the forge slow cooled have a crystalline structure that reflects light that shows a crystal like pattern. It sparkles somewhat. Low carbon steel does not. In fact cast iron really shows this effect, being very high in carbon. Yakite shitate may actually reduce the granular look of the steel to be a more amorphous surface, more aesthetically pleasing visually and tactilely. Can this just be an effect of the steel used? Quenching certainly would be unnecessary. John

[Rich T]

I think Ford and Pete have covered most of it. Yakite Shitate has I think been confused here with hardening and that is not it's purpose. It is purely an aesthetic. The tsuba is placed back in the furnace at the end of manufacture of the plate to slightly melt the iron, giving it that wet, glazed look. Yakite Shitate can, when viewed in the sun show these fine reflections of particles in hues of greens, pinks, blues etc, just like a sword can but I think to confuse this with nie, well I am not convinced. This topic I remember was discussed here some time ago by Darcy (I think). I also think this effect can be produced in nearly any piece of iron.

 

I have seen one tsuba with dark nie particles sprinkled on the hira, this was quite obvious and intentional. And there was an earlier mention of chikei on a tsuba also, and along with the more common masame hada styles we see in both hira and mimi, I see no reason why a tsuba could not have these features. I would speculate though that these kinds of features would be by the hand of a tosho, or perhaps the result of a whim of the tsubako. They are certainly not common as far as I know.

 

As to the original question, the worth of tsuba, well iron tsuba, and in this instance the Akasaka, Higo guards of the Edo period fetch prices far higher than $2000. This is closer to mid range price for these schools for quality guards. I emphasize the word quality here. Expect to pay 5K up for a decent guard in either school. As an example, I know of 3 Ko Akasaka tsuba attributed to the Nidai snapped up in Tokyo for about 650,000 yen (give or take 100,000) each. The attributions were good to my eye, the tsuba sensational. Two of these had Hozon attributions, 1 TBH.

 

I think the problem is, we look at these tsuba in photo's. not in the hand. With an untrained eye, they may all look a bit the same and we do ask, why is this or that so expensive. Buying of Ebay and the likes is, as has been said many times here, something that should be done only after you have gained some experience.

 

just a few random thoughts.

 

Richard