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Please Help With Another Translation

Whitegryphon70
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Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

Posted
Posted

Hi Sean,

 

Kawachi Kami Kunisuke suriage kore - Kawachi Kami Kunisuke shortened this.

 

Furu/ ko mei Yamato Kuni Masa??naga?? - Former signature Yamato Kuni Masanaga? 

 

This smith's name is a bit unclear: could be the cursive form of this Masa 正 or might be Tada 忠 and the second kanji looks like Naga 永 but I'm seeing a saucepan lid over the top of the kanji rather than the way it is normally written so I'm not sure with this.

 

The date is either Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681) or Enkyō (延享, 1744-1748), (again the second kanji is throwing me off) third year, sixth month, twelfth day.

 

I'm assuming that the date is the date on which the blade was shortened rather than forged and so I think it will be Enpo as the second one is too late for any of the four generations of smiths signing Kawachi Kami Kuni Suke.

 

Best,

John

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Geraint Grand Master

Geraint

Posted
Posted

Dear Sean,

 

"Pickedup",...........where on earth do you just pick up a sword like that?  Good koshirae and interesting mei.  Yous should start with Kunikane and Kunisuke in your search.  I am sure that you already know that image seven is the date and you should be able to crack that one.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this one pans out,

 

(Ah, but I see that John has done the work for you.)

 

All the best.

Whitegryphon70 Contributor

Whitegryphon70

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I said picked up because I went and looked at a trunk and the guy had these sitting on top of it. It was a sword stand with this sword and a ww2 navy sword with an anchor stamp. He said his grandfather brought them back from ww2 and was stationed at pearl harbour, and that they sat outside for 3 months waiting to get through customs. I asked if he would consider selling them, he named a price and I went home with them and not the trunk.

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Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

Posted
Posted

Hi Sean,

 

I can't be too much help with the koshirae but I would guess later Edo period as the saya looks to be in very good condition. I'm sure you'll get better views than mine on this.

 

I think Steve is right with his view on the signature: having a dig around there aren't any Masanagas linked to Yamato that I can find and Kane written this way ties in with the Yamato theme - Tegai Kanenaga being a big name linked to this province. These are the ones in Markus Sesko's Swordsmiths of Japan. They are all koto smiths, I don't know if any shinto smiths signed this way but we know that (assuming the mei is legitimate) the blade can't be any later than 1676...

 

KANENAGA (包永), 1st gen., Shōō (正応, 1288-1293), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永), first name Heizaburō (平三郎). He is considered as the founder of the Tegai school and lived in Nara´s Tegai-machi, a district that is located in front of the Tōdaiji´s Tegai Gate. The district Tegai-machi was, like the gate, written with different characters (for example 手貝町, 天貝町, 手蓋町, 輾磑町, 転害町 and 手掻町). Kanenaga made mostly blades with a wide shinogi-ji, a high shinogi, an iori-mune, and a chū-kissaki or sometimes also with an ikubi-kissaki. Densely forged ko-itame mixed with mokume or itame-nagare mixed with masame, in any case plenty of ji-nie. Some blades show chikei and jifu. The hamon is a suguha-chō that tends somewhat to notare and that is mixed with ko-midare or ko-gunome. In addition, nijūba, hotsure, uchinoke, sunagashi and kinsuji are seen. The nie are strong and can also appear in a rather rough manner. The hamon becomes wider in its course towards the tip and also the nie increase in quantity and intensity towards the tip of the blade. In very rare cases, Kanenaga applied a different hamon to both sides of the blade like seen at the meibutsu Konote-gashiwa (児手柏). His bōshi is yakitsume or has a very little kaeri. There are almost always nie and hakikake in the bōshi. He signed in a rather angular niji-mei of which the character for “Kane” is somewhat smaller and broader than that of the more large and elongated “naga”. ō-wazamono, jōjō-saku ⦿
 
KANENAGA (包永), 2nd gen., Karyaku (嘉暦, 1326-1329), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永), Tegai school, first name Heijirō (平次郎), he was active between Karyaku and Jōwa (貞和, 1345-1350), his shinogi-ji is more narrow than that of the 1st gen. and an ikubi-kissaki does no longer occur, the jiba is still nie-laden but his nie are not that strong and sparkling as at the 1st gen., on some blades the nioiguchi is somewhat subdued, it is hard to distinguish the two generations just on the basis of the signature, the 3rd gen. on the other hand signed with a smaller mei, ryō-wazamono, jōjō-saku
KANENAGA (包永), 3rd gen., Enbun (延文, 1356-1361), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永), “Yamato no Kuni-jū Kanenaga” (大和国住包永), first names Heishirō (平四郎) and Otosaburō (乙三郎), we know blades from the Enbun to the Jōji era (貞治, 1362-1368) but these are only tantō, signed tachi of the 3rd gen. are not known, his tantō are in hira-zukuri and muzori, the jigane is a dense itame with masame which tends to nagare, the hamon is a chū-suguha-hotsure in ko-nie-deki with nijūba and kuichigaiba, sometimes also a notare mixed with gunome or a ko-midare which tends to gunome is known, the bōshi tapers, shows hakikake and has mostly a long kaeri, the yasurime on tantō are higaki
 
KANENAGA (包永), 4th gen., Ōei (応永, 1394-1428), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永), Fujiwara Kanenaga (藤原包永)
 
KANENAGA (包永), 5th gen., Bun´an (文安, 1444-1449), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永)
 
KANENAGA (包永), 6th gen., Chōkyō (長享, 1487-1489), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永)
 
KANENAGA (包永), 7th gen., Daiei (大永, 1521-1528), Yamato – “Kanenaga” (包永), suguha, the jihada stands out, the works of the Sue-Tegai Kanenaga do not have much in common with the interpretations of the first three generations chū-saku
 
You might want to see if you can post some photos with more detail to see how the workmanship stacks up with the above as at first blush it looks an interesting blade.
 
Best,
John
Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

Posted
Posted

Hi Steve,

 

I couldn't find an obvious Yamato kuni link to the signatures of the smiths working in the Shinto period.

 

From what I can see of the sword's sugata (wide hiraji and large point) it suggests nanbokucho period...but this wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong. That's why I was hoping that Sean could post some further pictures which might help to confirm the sword's age.  

 

Sean, do you have any measurements for the length of the cutting edge of the blade?

 

Also, it looks like the original mekugi ana is near the end of the nakago now and the distance between the ana would give a feel for how much the blade's length was reduced in the suriage.

 

Kind regards,

John

Kronos Experienced

Kronos

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Going off the mei wouldn't be productive for now, far better to look at the sugata then hada (if possible) to narrow it down. A full length photo of just the bare blade and measurements would be ideal.

Whitegryphon70 Contributor

Whitegryphon70

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The cutting edge measurement from the tip of the kissaki to the munemachi was about 22 1/2 inches, I am not home right now but am having my wife send my pics and I will post them as soon as I get them. If there are any specific areas I need to get better photos of please let me know. And thanks again for all the helpful information.

SteveM Grand Master

SteveM

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No telling exactly how old the koshirae is. Say anywhere from 300 - 150 years old. I have read that this type of "aogai mijin nuri" (mother-of-pearl) koshirae was popular towards the end of the Edo period, which would make yours roughly 150 years old if it was made during that time.

 

As is often the case with Japanese swords and fittings, older doesn't necessarily mean better. Think of koshirae as replaceable parts, and the sword may have had several different koshirae throughout its life. (Yours certainly would have since the sword was shortened at some point). 

 

The koshirae in your pictures looks to be in very good condition. Could be even more recent than edo period. In any event, it looks fabulous.

 

As for the sword itself, its looking very much like a kanbun shintō, the name for swords made during the latter half of the 17th century, when a shallow sori was popular. It fits with the 延寶 date on the sword. Of the 包永 I linked to, there are two entries for Kanenagas in Enpō era, but these two actually point to the same smith (KAN205). This KAN205 Kanenaga is from Settsu province, which is right next to Yamato. So, close enough to be a potential candidate I think. There is also a Kanenaga (KAN201) from Kanbun era from Kii province, which is also next to Yamato - so I think that is another candidate. Given the shortened length and the flashy koshirae, it could have been owned by a merchant who had it shortened to comply with rules forbidding non-samurai from keeping katana-length swords - but this is complete speculation on my part. 

Kronos Experienced

Kronos

Posted
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I must disagree with Steve. While it looks Kanbun Shinto, I think Nanbokucho is a distinct possibility if not late kamakura and sue muromachi can look like this when suriage.  The hada has a koto look to it. It's extremely hard to tell with only 57cm remaining, a chu kissaki and without better pictures/polish to see the hada and hamon. Definitely one for shinsa as it's certainly well beyond my abilities.

 

Also I can't see why it would be shortened within 20-30 years of being made by a superior smith and there not being any records of a Yamato Kuni Kanenaga outside the Tegai line from hundreds of years previous (if not gimei). It just doesn't make sense but rarely these things do.

Jussi Ekholm Veteran

Jussi Ekholm

Posted
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Does someone have a reference mei or few for 3rd gen Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke? This mei does not seem to match in my personal opinion that of the 2nd generation. I have about 10 2nd generation mei in my books and searched about a dozen more papered ones online. There are some differences and I tried to make a comparison where I used few papered ones and this mei.

 

I might understand the current signature in the way that Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke shortened this sword 3rd year of Enpō (1675). And the sword pre-shortening had signature of Kanenaga from Yamato, which would in my guessing point towards Yamato Tegai Kanenaga line. However as I am not sure if the Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke signature is genuine it makes me personally question the mei.

 

2nd Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke was also very good smith. He is jō-saku in Fujishiro and listed as a wazamono. Now I don't have factual information to back this next bit down but I believe in order to have a very good smith shorten your sword and sign that he shortened this sword it might have been an important sword.

 

I agree with others about the koshirae, it does seem very nice to me. And as the blade is also in quite good condition I think you got a package that you can enjoy.

 

All of the above post is just my personal speculation and I think you have an interesting sword. :)

post-381-0-31360200-1457483007_thumb.jpg

Kronos Experienced

Kronos

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All the 3rd gen signatures I could find look pretty identical to the nidai but there was a few inconsistencies the both the nidai and sandai's mei so it's hard to tell. If gimei they would of had an example in hand to copy from and it's definitely targeted at 2nd/3rd gen.

 

There's some in this thread http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14877-oshigata-of-the-sandai-kawachi-no-kami-kunisuke/

Kronos Experienced

Kronos

Posted
Posted

If I understand correctly when kunisuke shortened the blade he also resigned Kanenaga's mei so comparing the kanenaga mei to known ones won't help at all as the original mei was cut off and the kanenaga mei was done by kunisuke. So it will not match any generation of kanenaga mei.

 

Correct.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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