The Influence Of Papers

[paulb]

 

It has really become clear to me that I don't personally have what it takes to be a "full on art sword connoisseur".

 

Hi Jussi

I am not sure I'm qualified to answer this based on connoisseurship but perhaps as the originator of the post I can use that as authority.

I think you do yourself a disservice. If you look at how long you have been studying and how far you have come I think you have done incredibly. What deifnes a serious collector or connoisseur (I really struggle to use that term as it has numerous negative connotations in modern usage) is surely the time and effort they put in to the subject and the experience they gain through the process.

I have met many knowledgeable people who have never and will never have the opportunity to buy a high level sword, but I always listen to their ideas and opinions as their level of understanding and appreciation is considerable.

 

At the other extreme there are those who have resources but just want to accumulate. Some years ago Tsuruta san offered a finder service (maybe he still does) I paraphrase what he said but it was basically tell me what you want i.e. "I want a Juyo katana" and your price range and I will find it for you. Accumulation is not collecting nor is it connoisseurdship.

That is in a way why I started this thread. On several posts recently there has been total focus on papers and their effect oncommercial value but no-one mentioned the sword relating to the papers and what merit it had.

It is very frustrating, but a fact of life, that Art like so much else is now viewed as an investment in commercial terms and the visual and dare I say spiritual experience falls by the wayside.

Having gone about as far as I can collecting I realise that even if I were to go on for another 35 years there will still be swords I would love to include in my collection but never will. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate them and enjoy them.

 

It may be going off at a tangent but I would really like to know why the three swords you linked to appeal to you. Identifying that is far more important than the level of paper or anything else. The first test in choosing a sword should be "does the hair on the back of your neck stand up when you see it and does your pulse quicken a little when you first pick it up?" Once you get past that inital, purely emmotional, response then you can go into details of attribution.

[Jean]

Jussi, there are a lot of way of collecting. All these swords appeal to me, they don't need to be Juyo. Some swords will never achieve Juyo even if they seem to qualify. Don't forget that Juyo classification is a competition, it does not mean that if a sword has not a Juyo certificate it is not Juyo class. I have swords which are only hozon, my Yasumitsu is only TH but who cares?

[Jussi Ekholm]

Maybe I worded that out bit funny and it came out not as I fully intended. That sometimes happens when English is not your native language. Sometimes it sounds better in your head and when you type it out it ain't exactly as you pictured in your mind. What I really meant that my own collecting mentality has also strong portion of "martial artist type view" mixed in (even though I'm not martial artist) as well as big portion of romantic view. So these skew my view from that who truely judges the blades by certain merits as art sword & historical appreciation. I have my own "things" that I like and my collecting will be very much focused around those.

 

For example someone could focus his collecting on a late Muromachi school which might be considered as "minor & insignificant" but that would not make him any lesser collector. I'm just trying to show the same thing that there are many types of collecting as Jean is saying above me. As I tend to hang with the Chinese replica katana folks quite a bit I think it's important to make people understand that you don't have to jump to Juyo level in order to enjoy sword collecting. There are many misconceptions that new people interested in collecting have and it would be nice to get new blood into our hobby. Sometimes I hear that the barrier to get in seems to be very high and I don't think it should feel that way.

 

There in the last paragraph I said the term myself... Juyo quality. I understand very well your thoughts on creating this topic Paul at least I want to think so. I agree that there has been a lot of talk about price and papers. Then you see terms like Juyo quality thrown around. As has been established in many discussion Juyo quality tends to be fluctuating term but it can be thought as meaning good quality and in more general talk very good quality. As it is a term that explains in short manner that item is of good quality it's quite easy to use. However sometimes I feel that for learning it would be better if bit more explanation would be given. Of course in long posts I understand it would become troublesome as it already takes a long time to write such post. There are times when post will make research a lot of stuff and you come back wiser and thankful that you had to take that time to do the research.

 

This problem of course heightens up when it's on field you know very little about. For me personally tosogu item, especially the high quality ones make this problem for me. They all look awesome to my eye and I lack the understanding to fully grasp the fine nuances that separate them. And I confess as the high end level blades are currently so alien to me that differences and factors on tokuju <-> juyo level are hard to grasp condition-historical significance-other factors et.. Of course they will become clearer with more study and for example Darcy is doing awesome job opening this for us.

 

For example personally I mostly follow the 500,000 Yen to 1,000,000 Yen market (because being realist that is where my next purchase will fall in couple years from now). Of course I always check the sub 500,000 Yen market all the time to find that hidden gem that everyone else misses... I think 500k to 1M Yen is very interesting market as you see somewhat the influence of papers. You'll get those cheaper than norm Tokubetsu Hozon swords that make them seem like a killer deal while they of course have some reason for their price because Japanese dealers know their game very well. In my own personal thinking these would be like "weak" Tokubetsu Hozon swords, not sure if that would be appropriate term to use. As we are thinking about influence of papers then these are bit easier to spot, as they have passed Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa but it's apparent they aren't the best Tokubetsu Hozon swords around. Hozon is much more problematic to judge in my opinion. When blade has Tokubetsu Hozon it has passed the 2nd rank shinsa, and it's much easier to compare it to it's peers. Again this might be confusing to some but I can't put it out in much easier way. Maybe an example could be 2 o-suriage mumei Tegai (as in OP) blades, other is 62 cm and has flaws that are easy to identify and condition is ok in overall while other is 70 cm and in good/very good condition with no apparent flaws. You might say the first one is a "weak" TH as it might have just barely made it while the other one could be a "strong" TH. 

 

At the above mentioned market you'll mostly encounter NBTHK Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon + NTHK Kanteisho and of course unpapered swords, and occasional certificates from other issuing bodies. I think one issue for me is throwing in categories as personally for me papers at that category wouldn't matter too much, and I could even buy a sword without certificates if it is something relevant to my collecting intrests. Personally I think bit too little credit is given to NTHK kanteisho. I like the very accurate information it gives and I think it is great for collectors. Also I can't deny the fact that NBTHK papers are a "golden standard" for business purposes.

 

Here is another example. A good friend had in my opinion very nice tanto with NTHK kanteisho. In my novice view that tanto could get Tokubetsu Hozon papers. However as the NTHK attribution is completely valid I can't see a good reason to invest money for sending it from Finland to Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa. Yes there most likely is a price jump in "value" after/if getting TH papers but adding in all the costs I would think the cons outweigh the pros in a circumstance like this one. Even though certificates raise the sword by an "artificial" level the sword stays the same. There won't be some magical add-on features appering on the blade after getting a higher paper. You can enjoy the same sword as much without papers as it having Juyo papers, of course having it run through Hozon or NTHK would confirm the mei or attribution. Which I see as a huge bonus. So in my view of thinking the basic paper is a huge "upgrade/confirmation" but above that...

 

As for the three blades I provided, my short answer would be, sugata + ubu or close to ubu nakago + signature. I think as I will only have a small collection of few swords I will want to focus on signed Koto tachi. For me being ubu or close to it will be very important as I have the romatical view of getting the feel of a sword as it was intended. Signature being a huge factor for me and having dating is a huge plus. Also the feel of the sword is very important, even though I am not a martial artist. Then I would also like that my small selection of swords would each exhibit different sugata & features. Yasumitsu being 75 cm and 3 cm sori, it would be awesome example of early Muromachi sugata and of course wonderful Oei-Bizen sword in overall. Senjuin has amazing sugata and ubu nakago, even if the mei is unreadable, having it there is huge. This is the romantic side speaking, it can't be explained by reason. Would be lovely to see it in hand how the hamon & hada appear to my eye. I tend to like hadatatsu appearance as it is very bold looking. Mitsunori is also very interesting. Even though I tend to like larger swords these short tachi of this period I see as an evolution to uchigatana and I find it being an important part of historical evolution. Short blade and short nakago make a very nicely handling sword for single hand use. Yoshii wouldn't be my number 1 choice as far as Bizen schools go but the upside of this sword was 1M Yen price and I saw it as a great example of Yoshii school work that is signed and dated and in good condition, and as something that might even be achievable in the future.

 

This ended up being longer than I first inteded as I felt the flow when writing. Hopefully there are even bits of relevant to the topic. Something like the influence of papers would be quite easy to discuss in real life but it's hard to put out your own thoughts in written form (at least in easily understandable form).

[Kronos]

Jussi, I have the same affliction when it comes to Ubu Tachi. Funnily enough I picked one up (from Paul of all people ) not long ago and have been trawling the internet looking at sugata etc to compare it to as there's nothing to see really apart from that until a window is opened up. I came across that Yasumitsu last week and it's almost identical except the nagasa. I think you may appreciate it.

 

 

I should know about the window in the next month or two and I wish it turns out to be well worth a full polish. It's only 69.5cm but lovely sori and taper.

 

Other sugata I'm obsessed with would be Enbun-Joji (both Tanto and Tachi) and I really have a thing for early (Oei) shinogi-zukuri Wakizashi and even earlier kodachi. To own a signed Kamakura Ko-Dachi would be almost an impossible dream for me at this point.

 

[manfrommagnum]

I am new to collecting. Buy I will say this: I look forward to the day when real science is used to evaluate swords so people stop polishing mei off swords to get an attribution that may be disingenuous at best. The mere fact that there is a huge amount of debate around the various certificates is why I would never buy a sword based on papers with attribution. Personally,I can't trust a process of providing value to something that was altered in a manner so as to hide the fact that a different mei was on the sword to start with.

 

Mike

[seattle1]

Hello:

 You might be on the right track there Mike, but your conclusion is rather restrictive. With so many thousands of men working as smiths during the koto era it is unrealistic in almost all cases to say that a particular smith's  name given has a 1.0 probability of being that man, however from an expert judge you can get fairly close. Characteristics of shape, jihada and yakiba will allow a fairly close focus on time, tradition and school. Within the school designation, once arrived at, the judge will have a hierarchy of names, if he thinks he can go as far as a particular name, that is one of more than one with that name, and the name chosen will tend to reflect the quality the judge sees in the blade which can correlate to a particular smith.  By the same token when a particular name isn't mentioned within a school, the school alone can be mentioned and you can be fairly sure that a responsible judge doesn't feel that he can narrow to a man. To go one step further in some cases a judge can't even be sure of the time period within a school or even the school within a tradition, thus yielding calls like Tegai, or Sue Tegai, or Mihara if not quite as good as Enju, or Enju in place of a step up to Rai. I consider those sorts of calls, as frustrating for the owner as they might be, just the product of an honest judging system where particularity is impossible.

 Arnold F.

[Rivkin]

Juyo definitely puts any sword in 1mil+ category. And most Juyo swords are attractive art swords.

However, not pretending to be a specialist, I would note that it involves very complex criteria, which are not always art or quality related.

For example, for Tsunahiro tanto to pass juyo it needs:

 

a. Be signed shodai/nidai.

b. Be in more hitatsura style rather then somewhat more restrained "Sadamune-Kaneuji" style often practiced by Tsunahiro.

c. Have large horimono of a dragon.

 

One can ask, whether just having bonji instead of a dragon is "artistic enough"? Maybe, but I was not able to find such Juyo. It is a well known situation, so when buying a good tanto of his without horimono, I was explicitly told not to submit it for Juyo. Sometime, many years ago they passed Tsunahiro tanto as Juyo and since then all tantos lacking any of the elements of the passed one fail automatically. 

 

Once I bought tanto that the owner submitted to Juyo and failed. Condition and polish are excellent; a very much identical one was submitted at one time and passed. If this one is resubmitted 1-2 times, this one will likely pass, if for the particular year the competition is not too strong and somebody on shinsa likes this style.

 

Another time I saw Muramasa tanto for sale. I usually feel that despite their fame most Muramasa are very plain and of poor craftsmanship, but this one was very good. The owner consulted NBTHK and explicitly said that it will not get Juyo - a small section of the hada is poorly forged. Everything else will make it Juyo easily, but for this two inch area.

 

Personally, I do not submit pieces to Juyo. If I like the piece, it stays with me, if not, it sells. 

[Rivkin]

Now I'm going to throw a little more fuel into this great discussion. It would be nice to hear some thoughts from more experienced collectors and I believe their view might be much different from my personal view. I can present you 3 swords that I would much rather have in my own collection than for example a "basic" mumei o-suriage juyo sword (I know basic is a horrible term in this case as even the lowest juyo are way above me).

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/product_details.php?prod_no=KA-0112

http://www.nihonto.us/KO%20SENJUEN.htm

http://www.tokka.biz/sword/mitsunori.html

 

 

I would think they are of very different quality.

I am no specialist, but the ko senjuen one will paper Juyo if submitted, in all likeness. Despite its age, it remains a graceful and rich example, offering much to the observer. Such sword in such condition would be welcome in any book on nihonto.

Yasumitsu is decent, but pictures are making it a little too hard to tell...I would say it is more flashy style.

The last one is hard for me to judge. I would assume it to be the cheapest one.

[Alex A]

To answer your question Paul, I would simply pick whichever sword appeals to me the most, regardless of paper. Hozen is enough opinion to back up my opinion.

 

I don't take much notice of sayagaki, although it looks pretty. Would need to be verified for me to take it seriously or backed up with Hozen

 

Juyo reminds me of these posh car shows were the winner gets a trophy, best in class etc.

 

I was at one recently, there was a line of Ferrari, lamborghini etc, not much interest from the general public.

 

In contrast, there was an old pristine Ford capri, folk were all over it like ants.

 

My point being, folk quickly loose interest in stuff they cant afford and see the beauty in stuff they can afford

 

When it comes to Juyo prices, I'm reminded of tale in "facts and fundamentals" were the guy said to the dealer "Actually I don't need the Kanteisho, just the sword, so take off the price of the kanteisho and il be on my way".

 

Each to their own I suppose, Juyo is for folk with deep pockets.

[paulb]

Alex

I think your first point is perfectly valid. You should buy what you like first and foremost. It must be misery to decide and buy a blade you like least just because it has higher level papers than the one you lust after. You would spend the rest of your time regretting it and wishing you hadn't.

Be careful dismissing syagaki. It depends who has written it. I would put great faith in sayagaki by Tanobe-san and Honami Kozon as just two examples,. Infact I would vlaue those higher than many papers.

There is a lot to be said in using a basic level paper to support your own thoughts.It seems to be a more common practice in Japan.

[Alex A]

Hi Paul, I agree, but every so often I see a sword with Sayagaki, and cant help wondering whether its legit?, but that's another discussion.

[Darcy]

I am new to collecting. Buy I will say this: I look forward to the day when real science is used to evaluate swords so people stop polishing mei off swords to get an attribution that may be disingenuous at best. The mere fact that there is a huge amount of debate around the various certificates is why I would never buy a sword based on papers with attribution. Personally,I can't trust a process of providing value to something that was altered in a manner so as to hide the fact that a different mei was on the sword to start with.

 

Mike

 

 

This is fair enough and a lot of people agree with you. They like to buy Shinto swords in particular because then no fuss, no mess. 

 

The thing with the mei being removed though, sometimes it's clear from the period and age of the mei that it's a lot younger than the blade. So it's some fraud that someone put on some time ago to get some extra money for the sword. Those have to go, absolutely. It has no affect on the judgment of someone who knows swords and it will appear wrong immediately. What it does is stand in the way of the truth.

 

What I don't like is when they remove the mei and then they attribute the sword to the same guy who was in the mei. 

 

I have a situation right now of a tanto that is maybe gimei maybe not. I think due to the condition of the tanto the NBTHK will say gimei. Because it is a difficult and rare mei in general, if the tanto were 100% intact then I think they sould say it's OK but they're not about to do it when the tanto is not 100% intact. Not enough to go on to judge the quality of the piece first to confirm the signature. 

 

Because I am not confident that it's false, I am not removing the mei. Maybe the person after me will, I can't control that. But I will sell it into the market and people will pay less for it as mumei papered to something and less for it as zaimei papered. So, I am taking a decision which financially hurts me in order to try to preserve something which could be historical with a few more examples lined up. 

 

When it comes to money not many people make the right decision, they make the practical decision. 

 

But definitely you need to accept the fact that some mei are graffiti and need removal as part of the restoration process and this is a process that you should trust but retain some skepticism on the side. 

 

What we debate on NMB is also not necessarily a microcosm of the rest of the sword world. We each entered this hobby at different times and our knowledge and decisions we choose are flavored by that insertion point. A lot of guys got in when uchiko was said to be a big way of improving a polish so they religiously use it. I don't see anyone in Japan using it. Guys in the west constantly. But there is evidence of use on blades coming back and some blades are outright ruined. All it takes is one guy. And no polisher thinks their polish can be improved  by uchiko or else the final stage would be 3 or 4 days of a student constantly uchikoing the blade. Those who made the religious commitment to uchiko or against it will debate it forever without any move. But the older guys who die off will leave the microfiber crowd in control and uchiko will go with them (harsh way of putting it but that is what is going to happen). 

 

Jim K wrote some good stuff but wrote some funny stuff, he's long dead now and some people turn to that as gospel, I don't think so. When I die and my stuff is left behind maybe my counterpoints will outweigh his because the websites they're on are at least up to date. I don't know. 

 

But a lot of these debates don't exist in the larger context of sword collecting. I never saw a dealer prepare a blade by using uchiko and I never saw one put it away with uchiko. They can come in out of deep storage and they wipe it down with a microfiber in Japan. If I catch one with some rust developing, I point it out and then I see uchiko come out, used in that one spot to clean up the rust, and it goes away. 

 

The thought of constantly grinding our blades with abrasives ... I don't see it over there. 

 

Now, don't let our debate here about this subject make you think it is a huge matter of contention elsewhere. We're just arguing partially because we're on leisure time and we want people to talk to about swords.