Wondering Hamon In Koto Swords.

[Alex A]

Been doing a bit of reading/head scratching.

 

When looking to see if a sword is Machi-Okuri, the 2 obvious I look for are....

 

A) Two mekugi-ana close together (but not always the case) & B   hamon running into nakago.

 

 

Ive noticed quite a few swords lately, listed as Ubu, but with an hamon that runs into Nakago,

 

As far as B goes, does anyone know any schools were this was typical with Ubu swords?, during early to mid Muromachi....

 

Cheers.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Alex, are you asking if there were any Koto blades that didn't have yakidashi, even if ubu?

 

Ken

 

[Darcy]

Often machi-okuri is considered a separate condition from the ubu state of the nakago.

 

So these are most properly described as ubu nakago machi okuri. Sometimes the NBTHK will say "almost ubu". 

[Alex A]

Alex, are you asking if there were any Koto blades that didn't have yakidashi, even if ubu?

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken, just looking for any particular swords school that may have had hamon that start a bit further down the nakago, not all the way down, a lower start point. I'm just wondering that if there are examples like this, then who did it and why?. Could some sword smiths have done this for a reason, in their eyes to prevent a weakness in that area of the blade. Sometimes we see bo-hi running the length of Ubu nakago for various reasons too.

[Alex A]

Often machi-okuri is considered a separate condition from the ubu state of the nakago.

 

So these are most properly described as ubu nakago machi okuri. Sometimes the NBTHK will say "almost ubu". 

 

Hi Darcy, i see. Interesting point and good to know, bit of a grey area.

 

Just a wondering if some blades could appear machi-okuri, but in reality are unaltered, just thinking out loud, as usual

[Ken-Hawaii]

It's an interesting question, Alex, as I'm still scratching my head as to why yakidashi were developed at all.  Why not just have the hamon sort of disappear into the nakago?  Is there a reason why it should taper down towards the ha?

 

Ken

 

[Alex A]

Difficult to say Ken, but all swordsmiths/samurai had preferences for various reasons, and I'm assuming that like everything else in this hobby, there are exceptions to the rule.

[Shugyosha]

It's an interesting question, Alex, as I'm still scratching my head as to why yakidashi were developed at all.  Why not just have the hamon sort of disappear into the nakago?  Is there a reason why it should taper down towards the ha?

 

Ken

 

I presume that form followed function and had always assumed that yakidashi became prevalent in shinto times because the steel used was less resilient (more brittle) compared to that of koto blades.

 

The area closest to the tang will suffer greater stress when striking a target and I had assumed that having less of the hardened steel of the hamon in this area would make it less prone to breaking. I think this is linked to the observations of Suishinshi Masahide who noticed that the blades that were most prone to breakage were those where the hamon crept close to the shinogi. Here's a link to an article on Nihontocraft:

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

 

I had also assumed that this was the reason for funbari in older swords: more metal in this area meaning that they were less prone to breakage. Of course most of this is deduction and guess work and I don't have anything to back it up, so please give it appropriate weight. 

 

Best,

John

[Shugyosha]

Further to the post above, in Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nobuo Nakahara at page 99 he deals with the question of suriage, the reasons for it (real or in order to deceive) and whether or not it was properly executed and says that a properly done suriage necessitates the removal of the hamon in the nakago by heating.

 

Unfortunately he doesn't say why this is done beyond "the effects that this can cause", but as it makes the process considerably more tricky than just cutting and filing, I would suggest that there is some functional purpose to it but again I haven't quite nailed it down.

 

John

[Darcy]

Further to the post above, in Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nobuo Nakahara at page 99 he deals with the question of suriage, the reasons for it (real or in order to deceive) and whether or not it was properly executed and says that a properly done suriage necessitates the removal of the hamon in the nakago by heating.

 

Unfortunately he doesn't say why this is done beyond "the effects that this can cause", but as it makes the process considerably more tricky than just cutting and filing, I would suggest that there is some functional purpose to it but again I haven't quite nailed it down.

 

John

 

 

In order to produce hagire you need really hard steel under stress. 

 

The application of heat to the nakago to "remove the hamon" is tempering it back down to zero.

 

At this state you have a guarantee that you won't hagire in the nakago. Your application of force is done through the nakago, and the rest of the blade is pushing back. This makes the fulcrum just above your fingers, so somewhere in the region of a katana mekugiana. 

 

This place is very highly subject to break and will be under more stress than it was if it were a blade previously there. So since the hardness gives you nothing but bad stuff, they take the hardness out. 

 

Breaking a sword in the nakago is a bad thing.

 

Fujishiro writes that old smiths signed light and squirrely not because they were bumpkins but because they were trying to avoid writing deep and changing the hardness of the nakago by working it. He cited an example of a fractured nakago that went right through the chisel marks of the smith (Shizu Kaneuji). 

 

A lot of smiths in the koto period signed very low on the blade, Hasebe seems to pile his entire signature into a funnel at the bottom of the blade. Akihiro and Hiromitsu are there. They're habits made for a reason. Possibly the short nakago these guys made too is part of it. It's meant to remove work hardening way way back from the fulcrum point so as to prevent a break from starting where the hardness changes due to hammering it. 

 

Hankei may have known what's up because he engraved his signature rather than chiseled it. By engraving he did not pre-create fault lines for a crystalline fracture to run through the blade. Is that something learned from gun smithing? 

[Alex A]

Thanks Gents for your time and detailed replies, much appreciated

 

So, way back in the Muromachi period, Yakidashi was less prevalent (cheers John)

 

This is a similar example to what ive been looking at, http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/N49617_T3545_PUP_E.html

 

Hope the owner don't mind, just the only way I can add a pic of what I'm referring to.

 

A few ive seen have been Uda, some katana with the hamon travelling a bit further down the nakago than the example shown, but beginning to taper off slightly. This is where the confusion lies regarding Machi-Okuri. With regards to were the hamon ends, they may resemble machi-okuri when infact they are unaltered.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Alex,

 

My understanding is that yakidashi is usually taken as a kantei point that suggests a shinto blade. 

 

Looking at Aoi Art's website, however, there are clearly shinto blades that don't have it and where the hamon continues under the habaki area and to some extent it is going to be dependent on school - Osaka and Kyoto schools were famous for it. I think that a hamon continuing into the nakago is a flag that might suggest machi okuri but it might also depend on the type of blade - a longer blade needing to be more resilient than a tanto.

 

Here's a precis of what Nakahara sensei says, apologies if my precis and choice of words has altered the sense - to be honest, I'm not sure I totally understand it but here goes:

 

1. In suriage blades the surface of the nakago will be uneven from being filed on one side, if not then try to find a reason to doubt that there was a genuine suriage and not an ubu nakago made to look suriage to create the illusion of age.

 

2. Look at the nakago sori and be able to spot where this may be unnatural.

 

3. A "proper" suriage will attempt to preserve the niku oki, mei and patina as far as possible.

 

4. In a "proper" suriage the mei section is never filed.

 

5. Depending on the shape and wear of the handle and blade at the time of suriage the above may not apply (helpful!!).

 

6. If there are several mekugi ana investigate thoroughly as they are often added for deceptive reasons.

 

7. If a hi ends in exactly the same place on both sides of the tang [presumably in a suriage blade], consider whether this was added later and if the yasurimei have the same angle, [again on both sides of the blade?] it may be an ubu blade made to look suriage.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that where there is a section of old ha in the tang, it can make the blade quite uncomfortable to hold as the edge is narrower than that of a normal tang, but you need the blade in hand for that.

 

So, really, take each case on its own merits. 

 

Hope this helps,

John

[Alex A]

John, plenty of useful information there, thanks!.

 

Your right, I suppose we have to look at each blade individually.

 

Went through Aoi,s site myself, comes in handy

 

Il be taking a longer look into this, Uda etc, see what crops up.

 

Cheers.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Alex,

 

This one might be of interest: a case where suriage/ machi okuri has occurred and the hamon has been removed from the nakago.

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-yamashiro-kami-nimura-sakon-fujiwara-toshinaga

 

Best,

John

[Alex A]

Hi John, thanks for pointing that out, looks well done, never noticed one like that before. I used to have a suriage Shinto katana and the suriage certainly was not finished to that standard. Like a lot that you may see, the hamon continued down the nakago. I wonder how many we see are not actually heat treated, but just cut.

 

 

Cheers.

[Alex A]

For anyone interested, just read, the hamon has to be heated, too hard to file, according to this site http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html .

 

"On the work of blade shortening, the hamon area is too hard to grind it off with file. So some part of hamon is heated to make it mild."