False Papers

[paulb]

"modern progressive organisation" are the key words in your point. The sword world appears ultra conservative still relying on hard copy and fax as communication methods. I agree with Darcy's point regarding the negatives of having such a database but certainly think there is room for improvement in communication and information availability.

It would be interesting to try and assess what % of the sword and fittings collecting population is outside Japan. While growing I think it still represents a very, very smal part. I think this is demonstrated at the DTI where very little if any concession is given to nonJapanese attendees with regard to labelling etc. Is it because they are ultra conservative and traditional or is it just we are nort a significant enough part of their potential customer base?

[Guido]

Paul's observations are spot on. The NBTHK even hasn't made the leap yet to their own e-mail address, they are not living in our century. Besides that they would have to hire a couple more staff to answer all those e-mails, their stance is "we provide a (not inexpensive) opinion, you take it from there". The main market for them (and the majority of dealers) is Japan, foreign countries are not really on their radar.

[Thierry BERNARD]

in fact we need something like this http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18887-new-certificatekanteisho/

 

Great idea with this QRCode it's easy to check our papers!!

[Alex A]

I suppose they do provide a (not expensive) opinion, but that opinion has a dramatic effect on the market price, so in reality, they have a responsibility and in my eyes shouldnt bury their head in the sand.

 

Be interesting to hear what the Japanese sword community thinks, issue is still the same there, or is it not?

[Alex A]

in fact we need something like this http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18887-new-certificatekanteisho/

 

Great idea with this QRCode it's easy to check our papers!!

Has someone spotted a niche in the shinsa service department by any chance?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Just keep in mind that any Internet-connected database could be hacked, & then the location of our treasure blades would become known to anyone who is willing to pay for that information....

 

Hell, the company I own sells security solutions, and with several thousand $$ of high-tech hardware protecting my network, I still keep my own collection spreadsheet encrypted!!

 

Ken

 

[Alex A]

Hi Ken, they would only need to store blade details and shinsa result with a reference number.

[Shamsy]

As Alex says. At present shinsa only stores blade details and a reference (bit of an assumption admittedly) and i cannot see an advantage to storing anything else. Not to mention that as soon as a sword sells, it would likely become outdated, as I cannot imagine many people going to the effort to re register a swords location when purchased privately.

 

There is no reason we could not have a stickied thread here where you can post the papers and nakago/blade pictures. It's hardly going to be an extensive library like NBTHK could produce but if people thought it useful why not. However, since the main point of the thread was the concern over fakes, our tiny representation are unlikely to make any difference.

[kunitaro]

I was surprised seeing so different reaction between Japan and the west over the NBTHK's announcement of false papers.

The gap of main reason is that the lack of information in the west. and it mainly comes from lack of understanding language as all we know. 
but, it causes multiple problems that make this subjects complicate.

I jointed NMB in 2012 to tell the truth and share my experience and knowledge with members here.
So, I would like to propose some subjects one by one to discuss with everybody.

The announcement in Tokenbijutsu Keijiban NBTHK was,

"Fake appraisals have been discovered and this does not only concern shiteisho and ninteisho but also hozon and tokubetsu-hozon papers. A reconciliation with our register might be done by phone but for an actual authentication of an appraisal, the item and the appraisal in question have to be brought in. For this, please inform in advance our management division and visit our Tokyo office."

 

I have some questions,

How many copies (Tokenbijutsu) are delivering to US and EU ?

How many people read it ?

and Did somebody contact NBTHK to confirm their papers (let's say in last 2 years) ? 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Would be nice to hear your thoughts in full Kunitaro.

 

European member base of NBTHK is quite small. I don't know our total numbers but I have a guesstimate of our group size, I'll let members more in the know comment on that if they want. We are good bunch.

 

I read the Token Bijutsu, well read is too strong word as my Japanese is very limited. You could say I browse through it and try to translate the item descriptions that are interesting to me. It takes a good while to arrive to Finland and I'm quite sure the February number arrived to me after the last NBTHK meeting I attended. Usually I don't even read (browse) the keijiban portion because it will be a huge task with my Japanese level.

 

I don't need to stress out towards papers as I know I'll own only few swords probably for the rest of my life. And those items will be swords that I like regardless of their level and/or papers. I understand it will be a much bigger deal to someone who has multiple swords, and for those buying & selling a lot. At the level on which I am collecting it's pretty stress free.

 

For me NBTHK is mainly about the other NBTHK members in Europe. I know non-members might treat it as a "papering organization" or something similar. Getting together with our other members is my reason for being a NBTHK member.

 

There are so many Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon swords, it would be a shock to me if there weren't any faked papers. How many are currently circulating I don't have a slightest idea and it would be nice to know how widespread this problem is. I have been under the assumption it's very minor problem but I could be wrong.

[kunitaro]

 

Thank you for your comment Jussi san,

and sorry for slow reply.

 

NBTHK is recommending to bring actual sword and paper into NBTHK to confirm.

It is meaning that the papers (and swords) are not recognizable by looking.

They need to be checked by NBTHK register,,,,

 

A reconciliation with our register might be done by phone but for an actual authentication of an appraisal, the item and the appraisal in question have to be brought in.

Have anybody seen any (well done) FAKE Hozon, TH papers ?

I think that answer is NO. I have never seen such a papers either,

Because, they are not recognizable....

And we have never heard a news that found or arrested perpetrator....

If someone could make such a perfect fake(fraud) paper and swords, and they know that they will not get cut,

Why did they make only a few ? It is normal to imagine that they are keep doing it.

 

Plus, when NBTHK found fraud papers, they are returning to the owners without marking or reporting....

Only the person who did confirm could know if it is fraud or not. If he keeps his mouse shut, nobody would know....

so, fraud items are keep coming back to the market.

Since when has it been happening ?

[Darcy]

in fact we need something like this http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18887-new-certificatekanteisho/

 

Great idea with this QRCode it's easy to check our papers!!

 

 

It's good but remember its bad because it puts you to sleep and makes you rely on a tool to tell you. If you have 100% faith in the tool, that's when someone finds a way to break the tool to make it do what they want. Find a nakago with a fairly close match, punch a hole if you need it, laser copy the papers and put your own nakago in the papers. If someone just checks the QR code and sees "their paper" then they will be successfully fooled. Stay sharp. 

 

Once we get self driving cars this is when we'll have all the accidents, not because the cars will drive poorly but they'll try to throw the driver into control in a situation outside of its pea brain scope to figure out. And the driver will have forgotten the alertness required to drive in such a situation. So the more the car does for you, the worse driver you are, and you will only be forced into driving in the absolute worse conditions. 

 

Not a good system.