False Papers

[Gokaden]

 Admin:

This topic is split off of another one where I mentioned fake papers, merely as an aside to prevent us from being accused of ignoring the issue.

However, the issue is a minor one, and not one that we should concern ourselves with too much. As mentioned, it happens anywhere in the world where there is a financial stake in something, and we should not allow ourselves to become paranoid.
As always, if you know your seller, and your sword, you should be fine. The percentage of false papers out there is minuscule.
However, in the interests of transparency and fairness, I am splitting those comments and leave them up here. However I will be locking the topic unless there is good, constructive info to add.

 

What follows, are the posts from the other topic.

 

 

 

Auction start price will be whatever his consigner was asking, plus come commission for himself. It will be to see how much more he can get than the minimum price.

I agree with Darcy. There are other avenues where this will sell and probably will sell. This sounds like a bit of promotion knowing word will get around. Even if that word is not to the usual clientelle for this type of sword.
Of course, anyone who can pay that kind of money for a sword should and might hop on a plane to go see it. Few would spend that money over the internet unless from a very high end dealer they have a relationship with.

With the controversy over papers in 2014 (and again now) the buyer would need a guarantee that the papers are right of course. We have spoken before in the past how some will paper only to TH just to confirm the mei, and not bother going further if the outcome is certain.

Don't think it will sell on auction, but will probably sell just after before it is listed for sale.

 

Can you inform a little about the controversy over papers that you mention? I always believed the H & TH papers to be "safe".

[Darcy]

Can you inform a little about the controversy over papers that you mention? I always believed the H & TH papers to be "safe".

 

 

There is a warning going out that some people have been faking Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

Apparently it's about Torokusho and it's been misreported.

 

Anyway, gossipish.

[Alex A]

There is a warning going out that some people have been faking Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

Cant see it being too difficult to create something reasonably convincing, even a water mark.

 

A case of buying the sword and not the papers, this old chestnut phrase.

[Shogun8]

There is a warning going out that some people have been faking Hozon / Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

Is there a way to tell if these papers have been faked? Also, is there a certain period during which this is supposed to have happened?

 

John

[Alex A]

Is there a way to tell if these papers have been faked? Also, is there a certain period during which this is supposed to have happened?

 

John

 

Hi John,  the only way to be sure is to check the papers with the organisations that issued them.

 

If someone who specializes in counterfeiting is asked to counterfeit Shinsa papers, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference.

[Shogun8]

Hi John,  the only way to be sure is to check the papers with the organisations that issued them.

 

If someone who specializes in counterfeiting is asked to counterfeit Shinsa papers, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference.

Thanks, Alex. Was the counterfeiting more prevalent with NBTHK or with NTHK papers? Also, does each of these organization keeps a record of every sword that has been submitted, regardless of results, or only the ones that have been papered?

 

John

[Alex A]

Hi John, yes, more prevalent with NBTHK papers. I'm not sure if they keep records or not with regards to failed swords, good question, but I would doubt it.

[Grey Doffin]

While if may be difficult to know if a paper is a counterfeit (although I would guess that fake papers are quite rare), it is easy to know that this paper is not.  Tsuruta-san would never offer a blade with a counterfeit paper.  It pays to know who you are dealing with.

Grey

[paulb]

Following on Greys point and without hijacking a thread about yet another "paper panic" there are some faked, doctored and just wrong papers in existence I would guess there have been since the first attribution was given.

However some of the fakes which appeared in the 80s were easily identified. It has also been mentioned on a different thread that in the 80s standards appeared to have slackened allowing for some questionable decisons. However all of these cases are rarities and it is important we keep this in perspective. As Grey says if you buy a sword from a reputable dealer with papers it is reasonable to assume they are genuine and in his opnion correct.

I think it is very dangerous to start speculating about accurracy and authenticity of papers without any justification other than to see such a sword appear on the open market is a rarity.

[Shogun8]

While if may be difficult to know if a paper is a counterfeit (although I would guess that fake papers are quite rare), it is easy to know that this paper is not.  Tsuruta-san would never offer a blade with a counterfeit paper.  It pays to know who you are dealing with.

Grey

Hi Grey,

 

My question(s) were really in relation to the Hozon papers that I have for my swords (but I think you've answered my underlying question  with your comment "it pays to know who you are dealing with"). I certainly wasn't questioning the sword or papers that are the subject of this thread.

 

John

[Alex A]

Not that I ever could afford a very expensive sword, but if I could, yes, I would want verification from whichever organisation issued the papers.

 

As for how many fake Tokubetsu Hozen  papers are out there, God knows, but when someone can turn a $5000 sword into a $10,000 sword, I wouldn't be surprised at more than a few.

 

Diligence is a necessity in this game, goes hand in hand with every aspect of this hobby.

 

As mentioned, Tsuruta San is well respected.

[Darcy]

OK, so apparently what has happened is:

 

1. some time ago the NBTHK warned to be on the lookout for fake papers

2. recent notice is about Torokusho

3. this got posted to facebook and distorted to be a notice about the Hozon papers again

4. a certain someone with a vested interest in a certain group decided this was an opportunity to take potshots 

5. drama ensues (as usual when the certain someone gets involved)

[paulb]

sounds all too familiar

thank you for the confirmation/clarification

regards

Paul

[Pete Klein]

Yup...

[Markus]

I think it is very dangerous to start speculating about accurracy and authenticity of papers without any justification other than to see such a sword appear on the open market is a rarity.

 

Fully agree with that. As far as as I can tell, this whole case is more like scaremongering. It seems that a few years ago, some very few fake hozon and/or tokubetsu-hozon papers popped up and someone informed the NBTHK about that. The NBTHK reacted, in my opinion, accordingly, and posted a warning in their magazine. Exact wording was: "Fake appraisals have been discovered and this does not only concern shiteisho and ninteisho but also hozon and tokubetsu-hozon papers. A reconciliation with our register might be done by phone but for an actual authentification of an appraisal, the item and the appraisal in question have to be brought in. For this, please inform in advance our management division and visit our Tokyo office."

 

As mentioned, the warning was in accord with the scarcity of these fake papers. AFAIK, it was about one of those dubious Japanese online auctions. Thus a small but obvious warning (thick fat box around it) in their monthly magazine. So it was not like that an investigation had shown that three of five circulating papers are actually fake. If this was a large scale problem, I am sure they would have addressed it properly as a full page insert in their magazine and probably also online on their HP. In short, relative minor issue and an appropriate warning. I mean, if there is a problem with the brakes, Toyota (or any other car manufacturer) would start a huge global recall. But they would not do so if its "just" about someone selling a couple of fake Toyota. They would react just like that, i.e. add a little warning in their bulletin or hand out a brief press release.

 

Now we can argue about the lack of communication with their non-Japanese members, that's a different issue.   

 

Than this whole issue kept floating around in some people's minds over the last couple of years and they kept approaching the NBTHK about it and blew this whole thing up: How many papers, what kind of papers, what are you going to do, how you gonna react, will you shred all papers and start once more a completely new system, won't somebody please think of the children? So they added another note in their magazine, this time saying: "If you have any doubts or if there is anything unclear about an existing appraisal (i.e. ninteisho, kanteisho, shiteisho), please call the Tokyo office so that we can check it with our register. However, for an actual authentification of an appraisal issued by our association, it is not enough to match it with our register, the appraisal in question also needs to be examined by our staff. Thus for an authentification of an appraisal, it is necessary to bring it to our Tokyo office (by prior telephone appointment)."

 

Again, this is not a large scale issue and I haven't heard of any dealer being affected by fake papers. It is just that some of those "bargains" bought at one of those dubious Japanese auctions that might come with a fake paper are being put into the market again. I mean, I have seen anything being auctioned off there over the years, for example fake lost meibutsu or fake former daimyo collection items with fake mei and completely fake "provenance package" (i.e. fake ancient looking box and a bunch of fake ancient looking papers), fake Hon'ami origami, fake Honma and Sato sayagaki, fake everything. No wonder that there might be the one or other fake hozon or tokubetsu-hozon paper amongst them.

[Alan F]

Is it so very difficult to stay on topic? The title of this thread was: Kiyomaro Value.

 

Brian said something earlier in this thread about fake Tokubetsu Hozon papers, and then Darcy said something (for which he later had to correct himself), and then we got sidetracked (derailed) into a discussion about fake NBTHK papers. 

 

Anyone tuning in now might think that we are questioning the validity of the papers for the Kiyomaro. That is not the case.

 

If you want to talk about fake papers, start a new thread.

 

Pietro

[Markus]

Brian or one of the mods, please feel free to split it from somewhere around post #30 onwards

[Guido]

Is it so very difficult to refrain from constantly being controversial?

[Darcy]

Is it so very difficult to stay on topic? The title of this thread was: Kiyomaro Value.

 

Brian said something earlier in this thread about fake Tokubetsu Hozon papers, and then Darcy said something (for which he later had to correct himself), and then we got sidetracked (derailed) into a discussion about fake NBTHK papers. 

 

Pietro

 

 

I think Markus put the followup in the right spot because of the context here. This thread can be separated into two though. Problem is that the Admin started the sidetrack and it's a major concern because people are in the dark. So here we are.

[John A Stuart]

I have hidden a rude comment from public view. People don't have to agree, but, rudeness is a losing argument and not to be tolerated. Police yourselves. John

[Alex A]

Yes, it must be mentioned that this thread as gone off on a tangent. However, when high value relies so much on the validity of written opinions, what are we supposed to do?, this will always be the case. It is wise to question every aspect of this hobby, so one does not get ones ass burnt.

[paulb]

Hi Alex

One should qualify it isnt just this hobby any collecting field has exactly the same issues. Where high value items are concerned there will always be those who are less than honest wishing to take advantage of the optimistic enthusiast.

Having said that it is important we don't cripple ourselves by allowing these concerns to magnify out of proportion. In the case of bad papers I am afraid this has happened on a number of occassions with the fire be fueled by those with a less than neutral interest.

[Brian]

Pietro will be taking a month break for rude and abusive comments that had to be removed.
I will decide after that whether he should return, or stay suspended. "Pietro" you cannot resist controversy, can you? Under this name, or your previous (banned member) name of Loco Al.

(Yes, the forum software is very advanced, and is designed to pick up things like this. People who do this risk a total ip ban, where ANY loading of the NMB would be prevented.)

Suggest you take some time (again) to decide if and how you wish to interact.

 

Brian

[Greg F]

A little self control and positivity can go a long way huh. Oh well.

 

Greg

[Alex A]

Hi Alex

One should qualify it isnt just this hobby any collecting field has exactly the same issues. Where high value items are concerned there will always be those who are less than honest wishing to take advantage of the optimistic enthusiast.

Having said that it is important we don't cripple ourselves by allowing these concerns to magnify out of proportion. In the case of bad papers I am afraid this has happened on a number of occassions with the fire be fueled by those with a less than neutral interest.

 

Hi Paul, hopefully folk will realize that i was not suggesting there is a false paper epidemic, just encouraging folk to be careful, especially when talking big buck swords.

It seems a little strange to me that some folk may take a piece of paper as gospel and jump in with a an expensive purchase without first checking things out.

 

Over recent years ive noticed one or two swords for sale with dubious attributions, not from any dealer here by the way.

[Alex A]

One last thought on this subject.

 

Would it not make sense for the these organisations to have an accessible database online?. (if there already is one, new to me)

 

For example, if I was selling a sword with Tokebetsu Hozen, I could simply tell the potential buyer its number 23456 on the website, you will see a brief description and clear photo of the nakago.

 

Makes everything that bit more formal and straightforward for the seller and there will be more reassurance for any buyer, its 2016 after all.

 

Just a case of someone uploading the files, bit of filing

 

I don't think its too much to ask. We don't need their opinions but try selling a potential big name for good money without one (so we do)

 

 

Just a thought.

[Darcy]

Yes it makes a lot of sense to have a database online, at least to verify papers. 

 

You should be able to input the serial number and several parameters to confirm. Length, date, serial number, maker. 

 

However, this can easily be abused by taking an existing paper and then getting a sword to match up. 

 

So if they did such a thing and someone used their service to confirm papers, probably they would become liable for damages. And, once you know some combination of valid parameters you are good to go to create fakes and they would come up as verified. 

 

It's probably better that people just be on their toes and not gullible. Actually gullibility is not the problem that greed is. People want the big score, they want it really badly and it's usually the big factor that tilts them into thinking a too good to be true opportunity is legit. 

 

I thought originally it would be a good idea to have an online confirmation service but after thinking about it, there is indeed this problem that it's a crutch and people will depend on it instead of using good common sense. Once that crutch is there that's a weapon that fraudsters can and will use. Things are bad enough as is. 

[Ted Tenold]

There is no more formidable foe to forgers and fraudsters, than an educated buyer.  As far as encountering an undiscovered treasure is concerned;  "Luck favors the prepared".

[Alex A]

Ted, true, Shinsa papers are there to back up what one should already know, but I suppose there are new folk coming into the hobby who simply rely on them, these are the folk most likely to get taken for a ride. I personally have never checked if a paper is legitimate of not, I go off the work, but that does not mean the paper is legit. To me its simply a piece of paper with an opinion, nothing to back it up, but feel there should be. I sometimes watch tv shows were someone has signed guitar or something, although the signature is accurate, the authentication certificate is a forge, they have quick ways to check the legitimacy, we should too, iimagine it could be a drawn out affair for those not in the know. Over this last year ive seen one or two dubious papers, they are out there, although luckily few and far between.

 

Darcy, every sword as a type of finger print (so to speak), number of mekugi-ana, length, colour, lumps and bumps, file marks, mei, shape, condition. Admittedly, it would have to be a quality photo, but all this with measurements of nagasa, sori etc, then I would assume it would be a rather large hurdle for fraudsters to get over and would put the vast majority of them off. I suppose they could add a photo of a particular part of the hamon for good measure or maybe employ someone like Aoi do the full works with pics 

 

Its not like there is an epidemic as mentioned, but in my eyes this is the way forward for these organisations, I would go with whomever offered it. Add a fee maybe for this service, employ a few more office staff to cover the work. These organisations have set the standards, I think it would be good for everyone if they moved forwards and arrived at 2016, handing out these papers is taking on a responsibility, like it or not.

 

As for liability, how about a clause?, I certainly would not hold them responsible, they would be doing all they could after all 

 

Anyways, I expect it will never happen, but would be nice if it did.

[Shamsy]

An electronic online database seems like the next logical step towards a modern, progressive organisation. Like it or not, online and digital is the way things are moving and it holds many advantages to paper hard copies. Longevity, accessibility and even just the progressive perception. Sure there are some issues, but there are also issues with papers so I hope it's not a matter of change fear holding them back.