Kiyomaro Value

[Pete Klein]

For whatever it's worth, here's my two cents. Being a bit of a contrarian investor my gut reaction to this sale is that if it's being offered overseas then it had reason not to sell in Japan. If it is so great it should have easily sold there and we wouldn't even hear of it ergo, what is the underlying issue(s) which drive this sale to an international clientele? One thing that crossed my mind is that it is possible that the offers made in Yen are less than what might be possible from a USD sale, even though the USD/Yen ratio has declined recently. They might be hoping for a 'Whi' (inside joke for those who participate in Yahoo! Japan)! Should be interesting to see how this unravels.

[CSM101]

Now, why did I post this sword? Because, unless it has changed in the last five years, there is only one Kiyomaro sword in Europe ... That tells all....

 

I think it´s three. One Kiyomaro and two Masayuki.

 

Uwe G.

[Alex A]

For whatever it's worth, here's my two cents. Being a bit of a contrarian investor my gut reaction to this sale is that if it's being offered overseas then it had reason not to sell in Japan. If it is so great it should have easily sold there and we wouldn't even hear of it ergo, what is the underlying issue(s) which drive this sale to an international clientele? One thing that crossed my mind is that it is possible that the offers made in Yen are less than what might be possible from a USD sale, even though the USD/Yen ratio has declined recently. They might be hoping for a 'Whi' (inside joke for those who participate in Yahoo! Japan)! Should be interesting to see how this unravels.

 

Pete, need to know what a "Whi" is

 

Rough guess, but are "western" & "Idiot" two of the words

[Alan F]

For whatever it's worth, here's my two cents. Being a bit of a contrarian investor my gut reaction to this sale is that if it's being offered overseas then it had reason not to sell in Japan. If it is so great it should have easily sold there and we wouldn't even hear of it ergo, what is the underlying issue(s) which drive this sale to an international clientele? One thing that crossed my mind is that it is possible that the offers made in Yen are less than what might be possible from a USD sale, even though the USD/Yen ratio has declined recently. They might be hoping for a 'Whi' (inside joke for those who participate in Yahoo! Japan)! Should be interesting to see how this unravels.

 

Certainly, I was thinking along the same lines when Jean brought attention to this auction piece.

 

Many unknowns: Why is it for sale now? Why is it for sale on Mr. Tsuruta's website? Do other high end sword dealers in Japan perhaps charge more commission? Who is the consignor? Is he in urgent need of money or is he approaching infirmity (not well)? Are there not enough interested buyers in Japan (perhaps not so easy to sell in Japan presently)? Is there an underlying issue (as Pete said) with the sword itself? Is this possibly Mr. Tsuruta's own sword?

 

I like the last line in Mr. Tsuruta's listing: Please note: In regards to this item, we cannot accept the credit card payment.

 

By the way, there's one bid already.

Okay, who couldn't resist checking to see if I was BS'ing?

 

Pietro

[Stephen]

Just to save anyone time, no bids yet.

[Kronos]

20 mins left to place your bids gents

[Stephen]

now on consignment 

http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-minamoto-kiyomaro

[Shugyosha]

I've just sent the wife out to shake her money maker. Hope no one's in a rush to buy it...

[SwordGuyJoe]

I've just sent the wife out to shake her money maker. Hope no one's in a rush to buy it...

Maybe the consignee would consider a straight-up trade?

[w.y.chan]

A Kiyomaro is box office material that would grace even the best museums. Surprise no bidders.

 

Wah

[Darcy]

A Kiyomaro is box office material that would grace even the best museums. Surprise no bidders.

 

Wah

 

 

Most people who may be interested in buying such a thing and can afford such a thing don't have enough time to make a tour of all the websites on a weekly basis. 

 

Often times this kind of thing is just waiting for a connection. 

 

The kinds of customers for this type of blade in Tokyo are probably not stopping to shop at Aoi. Aoi is just a tiny little shop with barely enough room to stand for two people at the same time. It's not a high end showroom like the top end dealers have. A customer for this kind of blade may be expecting to browse among many Tokubetsu Juyo and Juyo Bijutsuhin. They will be taking their time and sitting down and being shown many swords just for appreciation all at this top level. This blade would be among those and that's how a customer with that kind of money would be spending their time. 

 

If this was on display at the Dai Token Ichi then anyone could sell it because all kinds of customers will pass through that room and see it. But a lot of people who would buy this in Tokyo would just not know it's there and wouldn't be going to that shop to look for things. 

 

It's not the right choice of dealer to sell this blade. I would give it to Iida san or Kurokawa san or Kawashima san. They would have a customer probably waiting for something like this. 

 

There is a collector in Japan who has 10,000 swords and those are not low level swords. He has many Juyo Bijutsuhin, Tokuju, Juyo and many of those are very rare types of things. He is the kind of guy who would buy this but he looks at swords probably once or twice a year. You can imagine he's running a major business empire if he's put enough money together to buy 10,000 swords of any kind. Just the replacement value of the shirasaya for 10,000 swords is eight million dollars.

 

I don't know how much gold goes into a gold foil habaki. Say maybe it's 8 grams. This is really pure guesswork I have no clue. but that could be 80 kilograms of gold just in the habaki on these swords.

 

We are all just tiny tiny tiny little minnows playing in the shallow end of the pond.

[Kronos]

10,000 swords wow, he should release his own Meikan. He must have someone employed solely to oil all of them.

[paulb]

Darcy wrote  "There is a collector in Japan who has 10,000 swords and those are not low level swords"

 

 

I am reminded of stories of ancient potentates who had harems of several thousand wives and concubines. Depending on the health and appetites of the “gentleman” concerned on average these ladies might expect a visit every 8.5 years.
I wonder how often this sword collecting magnate looks at each of his blades. I also question the motivation. While this may have started with a deep and genuine interest I cannot comprehend how anyone can appreciate, enjoy and care for a collection of this magnitude. The act of accumulating swords has replaced any more academic motivation; he is doing it because he can.
I thought the Compton collection which numbered several hundred works was excessive and wondered how he could possibly enjoy and understand the works in his collection. From my own minor experience and discussions with others I have found that when having 10s of swords I tended to look at the top 5 and only occasionally check the rest. If that became thousands I would foresee them sitting unlooked at and forgotten, which seems to be a great waste (unless of course the collector chooses to build his own museum for them and open it to the public)
One of the problems with great wealth combined with collecting is that many beautiful works are lost to view to other than a very few. I think that is very sad.

[Bazza]

Paul puts it beautifully.  As an enthusiastic drinker of red wine (shiraz and durif in the main) I know a winemaker (my favourite winery) who has a personal cellar of 8,000 bottles!!  Well, I ask you!!!  The most I have ever had was 400 bottles sitting in an outside shed, so that I had to brave whatever weather was going to get a bottle.  I really don't know where they went, but they went!!!  Now, 10,000 swords.  WOW.  That's TEN Benkei hard at work!!

 

The other side of this is that I once listed my collection to a person in Japan (a mere couple of dozen or less).  The reply was "That's nice dear!!", but in Japan we don't collect like that.  Most people interested in Nihonto have a very small number of swords, even only ONE sword, or none.  It wasn't necessary to have a lot, or any, I was told, because it is so easy to go to museums and see and handle any number of top swords without owning them.  Put down point taken.  So we come back to 10,000 swords.  So what??  Is there a point???  Simpleton that I am, I dunno...

 

BaZZa.

[Greg F]

10,000 swords!!! If they arent planned for a museum then to be honest the word greed jumps out at me. It just reminds me of how some people have more money than they can spend in a lifetime while there is children homeless and starving. I suppose thats why hes that rich, its hard to have a lot when your kind and generous but there will always be greed, so be it. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Guido]

Just the replacement value of the shirasaya for 10,000 swords is eight million dollars.

 

I don't know how much gold goes into a gold foil habaki. Say maybe it's 8 grams. This is really pure guesswork I have no clue. but that could be 80 kilograms of gold just in the habaki on these swords.

 

I never would have thought about the collection this way, but it's true (and hilarious)!

[Guido]

They will be taking their time and sitting down and being shown many swords just for appreciation all at this top level.

 

Don't forget that they also will be served green tea and higashi Japanese sweets that are like a black hole for saliva. It's the worst part of visiting a high class dealer in Japan.

[Stephen]

Darcy i love ya brother, but if your at the shallow end of the pond with where you deal at, that puts a we bit of us out on dry land. LOL

 

[Guido]

It just reminds me of how some people have more money than they can spend in a lifetime while there is children homeless and starving.

 

Well, welcome to reality. I don't like it either, but that's how the world works. Still beats communism IM not so HO hands down, where the lack of personal gain leads to economic stagnation and even regress, making everyone suffer.

[Brian]

Wow..talk about going off track....

Can we ignore the amount of swords in other people's collections and get back to discussing one Kiyomaro sword now?

[Darcy]

We could fork the thread. I'll just add one note: I think some of his motivation is that he may be thinking in terms of a long term preservation foundation for the blades. So he is pulling things that he thinks are especially worthy and he seems to be interested in advancing preservation techniques. Consider the abuse that swords are going though right now of people messing them up with uchiko, getting them polished unnecessarily, cutting off the mei (as we saw in that Enju blade) and so on. I received some blades from a collector this summer that had been polished before he got them, they hadn't been looked at in 10 years and arrived rusty so had to be polished again. I think he is thinking long term, like permanent multi millennium type of timeframe and will leave behind a legacy to care for the swords. I only know a small bit about this but this is the impression I'm getting. 

[paulb]

If that is the case then I can only wish him well in his endeavours. The numbers are truly mind boggling but if he can bring it all together and preserve such a volume of worthwhile material he deserves great respect and support.

[Ron STL]

Darcy, thanks! What you have written is both good advice and an education. While such treasures are out of my reach (budget) they do indeed seem like bargains compared to other fine art that comes on the market. Almost all of us who have gotten into this field, have stumbled into it when in the U.S., swords were plentiful, cheap, and some treasures where still sitting in closets and attics awaiting to be discovered. As for the TokuHo level paper (not Juyo), this may simply be the seller's choice. Myself, I have two daito sitting here that very likely would reach Juyo, but at my age I'd rather just enjoy them rather than see them out of my hands for a long while when going through a successful Juyo shinsa. They are what they are and if the next owner scores, more power to him. Finally, I've often wonder who one would sell a true treasure-sword. I find that a rather daunting thought! Again, thanks Darcy for your comments on the Kiyomaro under discussion!

Ron STL

[geekman]

Very interesting and excellent points brought up in this discussion.  As Darcy said, a Kiyomaro blade rarely if ever comes onto the open market.  One of the dealers mentioned above, once told me that the "High End" blades are always sold in house, between dealers, or between a dealer and a buyer looking for something specific. It never comes onto the open market. In this case, could it be the children of the owner, who have no interest in swords selling the blade and don't have the selling network connection that maybe the father had??

 

Is this a Kiyomaro that is subpar in work as compared to other blades made by him?.  What must be remembered, is that Kiyomaro was a heavy drinker, and as such, many of his works suffered.  Fujishiro Okisato once told me that a good Nobuhide was better than an average or poor Kiyomaro. Unless we are able to see the sword, or know the situation of the owner, we can only speculate.

 

Finally, is the interest in swords in Japan as great now as it used to be back 15-40 years ago??

 

Brian  

[Guido]

Is this a Kiyomaro that is subpar in work as compared to other blades made by him?

 

Maybe, but it has TH papers and therefore can't be that bad. Hey, I'd rather drive a used Mercedes with a few scratches than a brand new Yugo in pristine condition!

[Henry Wilson]

And I would even take a cr@pper Kiyomaro blade if I had enough spare change under the sofa. Think of the glory.

[Ed]

Do any of you remember 10-5 years ago there was a signed, polished Kiyomaro being sold at Christies.  It had a small haigire and was unpapered, though it had a letter from Tanabe guaranteeing its authenticity.  Starting bid was 10K, yes a mere $10,000 and it went unsold.  

[CSM101]

Funny thing is: I know a Sukenao with the same letter from Tanobe san.

 

 

Uwe G.

[Darcy]

Do any of you remember 10-5 years ago there was a signed, polished Kiyomaro being sold at Christies.  It had a small haigire and was unpapered, though it had a letter from Tanabe guaranteeing its authenticity.  Starting bid was 10K, yes a mere $10,000 and it went unsold.  

 

 

I will buy it now for me if someone can tell me where it is.

 

This is an example of not everyone having full knowledge of where something is or at what time. 2008-2011 I was sword blind working on working on software contracts after the financial crisis. 

[Darcy]

About Kiyomaro selling in Japan, a dealer I won't name, when I asked him what his favorite swords were he said "Kiyomaro and Masamune." I said oh why do you like these two? I rattled off the stuff I liked and why.

 

He said, "They are money swords."

 

So, I presume the market in Japan is fine for Kiyomaro. I think the vendor is not the right vendor to be selling it. Some people might want it to go to Juyo as well to clear any doubts. As there are often ... questionable things. And Juyo clears the table nicely. So some people wait for that to make their decision or make it a requirement. 

 

The question worth knowing is that is this one not Juyo because something stopped it or is this one not Juyo because someone's been hiding it. That may be what makes people hesitate. But you could get this thing and bring it to Tanobe sensei and then bring it to a top polisher and have them both go over it and pronounce it sound for you. 

 

I'll be in Japan in a while and I'll go and see this blade. Maybe I'll do what you guys do to me to him lol.