Ken-Hawaii Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 I have an old friend who is slowly selling off his collections of Nihonto & tosogu. He has two gorgeous tsuba I'm interested in, priced the same, & identical, except that one has obviously has been mounted on a blade, & the other one hasn't. Is one better than the other to collect, everything else being equal? Ken 1 Quote
jason_mazzy Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 ill take the other one lol. which calls to you more? the one mounted has my vote but others will disagree. Quote
b.hennick Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 A sword collector collecting fittings would probably like the one that was mounted better. A fittings collector would probably like the one that not mounted. I would go for the one that speaks to me best. The one that requires me to look at it time and again. Regards, Barry Hennick 1 Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 16, 2016 Author Report Posted February 16, 2016 They both call loudly to me, but I can only afford one. Both are pristine tsuba, & I can't provide photos because he won't allow them. As a sword-swinger, I'm much more of a Nihonto guy, but my tosogu collection is growing even faster. Ken Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 As an example of a high quality tsuba, I would pick the unmounted one personally Quote
Gasam Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Heya, I like the ones that have been mounted :-) But maybe the unmounted ones have better value when selling? Who can tell? If they are identical, can they have been made as a daisho set? but then one should maybe be smaller than the other? Anyhow, post a pic of the one you do get eventually :-) Quote
christianmalterre Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Ken, this is quite simple! if you like both- do buy both! (buy you one, arrange you a contract with the seller that he will equally sell you the second one later- there are many ways do do for such business..) (he wants to sell ?- so he will sell!) if you say your´s Tosogu collection is growing even faster....i just resume...this Tosogu collection can not be that good! a good collection never grows fast! does but take long long years to go for it...! Christian 4 Quote
Rich S Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Remember Rich's First Rule of Collecting (which I've posted a dozen times:-) Collect what you like, but like what you collect! Rich 2 Quote
Stephen Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 That un decided? flip a coin, the tsuba used is the path to follow. Quote
Greg F Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Hi Ken, Are you able to find a similar one on the net for us to get an idea? Any papers for either?I think mounted btw. All the best. Greg Quote
Shogun8 Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 That un decided? flip a coin, the tsuba used is the path to fallow. Fallow or follow? John Quote
Ed Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Christian and I are thinking alike, buy them both ! Quote
Wayben Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 Part of the attraction to me is the history of the piece. It comes down to would I prefer one that was used as it was intended or one that sat on a shelf its entire life. I like the ones that have been mounted. Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 16, 2016 Author Report Posted February 16, 2016 Come on, guys - give me a break! If I could afford both tsuba, I wouldn't have asked the question. The two tsuba are papered Saotome wheel-spoke/chrysanthemum design, & although I primarily collect Heianjo, the sheer simplicity of the armor-maker's art really appeals to me! Neither of them have ana, so it's the sekigane & the lightest sign of seppa dai that differentiates them. They're very similar to http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms-armor/a-saotome-school-tsuba-momoyama-period-5618060-details.aspx, but with much less wear. With my magnifying glass, I'm pretty sure that different tosho made them, but honestly can't decide which one I like best. Is there a premium paid for mounted versus "virgin?" If so, why? Ken Quote
christianmalterre Posted February 16, 2016 Report Posted February 16, 2016 from which date? when did they both get papered? by whom? (the reason i do ask you this- and if you do not know about, please do inquire!- is extremely important! especially with these chrysanthemum Saotome guards!) Christian 1 Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 16, 2016 Author Report Posted February 16, 2016 I don't know when or by whom they were papered, Christian, & hopefully my old Japanese friend can give me those answers. The papers did look quite alike, & I think they are like this: http://www.shibuiswords.com/guruma.htm. Why is this so important for Saotome tsuba, out of curiosity? Most of my collection has no papers. Ken Quote
christianmalterre Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Dear Ken, i did ask due the reason these kind of Tsuba (Chrysanthemum) were relatively ofthen copied in this stilism... The Kiku-Petal was a very prominent and en vogue design... many schools(traditions) did work it out, sometimes as a pure copy, sometimes with slight differences like you can see it on my Tadashige Tsuba (i did attach you a picture) - there were (least) these schools (traditions) who regularely can be seen to have used this... -the Shoami -the Kyo -the Myochin -the Akasaka (mine here) -the latter Tosa-Myochin -and of course! the Saotome! the reason you should equally be well aware about...(as these kind of Tsuba naturally in collectors circles do cost a big amount of money) is, in case you latter do decide to part from it again... papers issued by NBTHK or NTHK naturally augment the value- do equally give a feeling of security to the new potential purchaser... (you actually just do not know if you finally will keep your´s purchase forever) equally be well aware- there are organisations in Japan, which did issue Origami and/or certifications in past- which do add no slightes fiscal value plus, to the individual item. the market is a rough and hard "battlefield" ! (some other factors like the date of issue, of course, are equally factors to considder about)... Christian Quote
Brian Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I've once seen on one of these, visible signs that each spoke had been inlayed individually. There were dovetails visible on fine inspection, which was a sign of true armorer style craftmanship to me.Not sure if you have very close photos, but personally I would go for any of them that shows this workmanship as opposed to being cut out from solid. Maybe I am way off the mark here...wish I had the picture to show again. I think Pete K. will know what I mean. Quote
Pete Klein Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 Brian - my preference is for the solid cut out sukashi. The soldered ones were done to allow thinner and therefore a higher number of spokes (for lack of a better term) to be accomplished. It's subjective of course. Here's a high priced example: http://www.nihonto.com/4.4.15.html My preference is for tsuba which have been used with the exception of some very high end kinko examples which I couldn't afford anyway. I like the wabi of age in the metal. The sterility of perfect pieces can be off-putting, at least to my eye. 2 Quote
Ed Posted February 17, 2016 Report Posted February 17, 2016 I like that style of tsuba, but don't own one. Never seemed to find the "right" one. Personally, I don't have a preference of either the inlaid or cut out spokes. My choice would depend on the quality of execution and the overall condition of the iron, leaning towards the condition seen in Christians example. Ken, I am guessing that there is some wear to the 'mounted" one ? Since you can't get photos, can you describe the amount, type and location of wear or deterioration of each? Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Posted February 17, 2016 That's very useful information, Christian - thanks! I guess I'm wiser to stay primarily as a "Nihonto guy" where I have at least a bit more experience! As far as I can remember, there was no sign of brazing, at least with brass, but as I wasn't looking for that (assuming that the "spokes" had been cut out of the plate), I'll need a second look to be sure of that. Thanks, Pete. Ed, there's really very little sign of wear on the mounted tsuba, perhaps a few minor worn spots on the mimi, but more like tiny scratches that took my magnifying glass to see. The seppa dai was really faint, too. And no wabi of age on either of them, as far as I can tell. Ken Quote
Ed Posted February 18, 2016 Report Posted February 18, 2016 Hmm, with no significant difference in quality, I don't think one would necessarily be a more desirable piece than the other. As others have already said, it sounds like the choice comes down to the one that appeals to you the most. Quote
Barrie B Posted February 19, 2016 Report Posted February 19, 2016 Hi Ken, I would go with the mounted one.. Especially if the condition of both is fairly much the same. It is always nice to see sekigane in tsuba and know that they were once worn and used as intended. There are many nice kinko 'presentation' tsuba, but the classic kiku-mon Saotome are not normally in that category. I too think they look fantastic and would go with the (previously) mounted one, I think. Just my two cents... Barrie. 1 Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Posted February 20, 2016 Thanks for all the feedback. I agree with the majority that the mounted tsuba appeals to me the most, so I'm headed over to see if my old friend will sell it to me at a price that won't get my head cut off by my sword-swinging wife! Aloha! Ken 3 Quote
Shogun8 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Posted February 22, 2016 John ...yes a typo Wasn't trying to be facetious, Stephen - if the use of the word fallow were intentional, it would've been a very appropriate pun! Quote
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