ko-kinko ?

[Bungo]

bought this lately, seller called it late edo/Meiji and I disagree.......

 

I think this is ko-kinko , possibly Momoyama or earlier.

The wear pattern looks very natural and, in my opinion , not contrived.

 

pics will be posted in mutilple massages.

Don't be shy with your opinions........... thanks

p.s. this is in shakudo, but ye all know that already.......

 

 

milt the flying ronin

[Bungo]

now the close ups............

 

p.s. the " lighter " color is due to camera flash.

 

 

milt the flying ronin

[Rich T]

Ko Kinko for me, but late, maybe early Edo. It looks like one of the end of the Ko Kinko era pieces. It's hard to tell from the images Milt, it is Yamagane with a thin shakudo plate on the outside ?

 

Rich

[Bungo]

" it is Yamagane with a thin shakudo plate on the outside ? "

 

nope, solid piece, looks like shakudo ( very dark blackish brown ) not like the typical yamagane with the " reddish grey brown " color.......

 

I am not sure about the gold " wash " on the mimi, not nunome but doesn't look like gold paint-on either........

 

 

milt the flying ronin

[Pete Klein]

Milt -- I believe it is Momoyama, mid to late therefore Ko Kinko. The gold on the mimi would be original, probably some type of plating. The size difference in the kogai and kozuka bitsu is seen during this time period. What bothered me when I first saw it on Ebay was the extreme wear to the omote. This I can't figure out. The nanako has been wiped away in places. The dealer showed mostly ura pictures with only one omote view toward the bottom of the page if memory serves me. It's an interesting piece but the reason for the wear alludes me.

[Bungo]

arrhhhhhh yes, nothing escaped you.LOL .I couldn't figure out the " extreme " wear on the lower half either.

 

milt the flying ronin

[Grey Doffin]

The extreme wear to the nanako can't be natural. No amount of wearing a sword, fighting with a sword, or any other normal sword usage would erode the nanako that badly, no matter how old it is. Something had to have happened to this; either the nanako wasn't cut fully to begin with or it was removed all at once later.

My 2 cents worth.

Grey

[Bungo]

" either the nanako wasn't cut fully to begin with or it was removed all at once later. "

 

the last " dark " pic could be deceptive.........

the kiri mon and what's left of the nanako are very " LIGHTLY " incised/punched.

I would say over 85 % of the tsuba surface is actually smooth with traces of " nanako "

The nanako we can see is almost like a cursory " after throught "....not fully punched like we have in the edo period kozuka.

 

A strange piece...........

 

milt the flying ronin

[docliss]

I, too, would confidently label this tsuba as Momoyama Ko-Kinko work, but the exaggerated wear does pose some questions. Surely that measure of wear would have exposed the raw metal, and either the tsuba has been repatinated at some stage in its long life or - and more probably - the artist deliberately created the impression of increased ageing by 'going easy' on the decoration.

 

Regards, John L.

[remzy]

Maybe the samurai who used to rest his hand on this tsuba... had a very abrasive skin? :3 hehe!

[Bungo]

" that measure of wear would have exposed the raw metal, and either the tsuba has been repatinated at some stage in its long life "

 

actually excessive wear may not affect the patina if done over a long period of time......

 

http://www.esnips.com/doc/3d50e740-6129 ... ed/oddlot1

 

 

this is a ko-kinko ( or ko-goto ) kozuka I have, note the kiku flowers have been worn smooth, traces of gold utori ( spelling ? ) around the edges, nanako all gone and yet the patina is solid black........

 

milt the flying ronin

[docliss]

Thank you for that - I am surprised by it, and am completely at a loss to understand it when even excessive rubbing with a cloth can sometimes remove the patina and expose the raw, copper metal of shakudo.

 

John L.

[docliss]

Further to my last message, I have been seeking an explanation as to why long-term wear on soft metal fittings, to such an extent that the nanako is almost flattened, does not result in a loss of the patination. If this degree of flattening were the result of abrasion, the patination - of only a few microns thickness - would certainly be lost. Is it therefore possible that the long-term handling of the fittings produces a degree of flow in the surface metal, thus causing a change in its profile without affecting the overlying patina?

 

Additionally, since the nanako is produced by hammering - which results in tensions within the metal - the natural elasticity of the metal will tend to reduce these and to slowly restore the metal to a plane surface. I suggest that the nanako of a soft metal fitting would thus gradually reduce in magnitude if it were simply stored for a few hundred years without being subjected to any wear.

 

Regards, John L.

[Bungo]

better pics........

p.s. last pic, to the right is the flash effect, the actual color is close to first/second pic.

milt the flying ronin

[Brian]

Dr L.

 

Interesting theories, but ones that would be hard to prove I assume.

In the interests of choosing the simplest explanation in my eyes, I would say that these tsuba with that much wear on them might simply have been repatinated at some point in the past. Whether the wear is natural or from someone "fiddling" with it, somewhere in its life someone may have decided to touch it up.

The other possibility (and one that I subscribe to) is that natural patina "heals" the wear over time, and with all the handling and exposure to the elements over the years, it will probably repatina itself. We are taught that not only iron, but shakudo too, will develop a nice patina over time. Could this not be the case where the underlying metal was exposed?

I have seen how easily the patina of shakudo can be rubbed off, but a hundred years of handling might well cover that competely.

What are the thoughts on this?

 

Brian

[docliss]

Brian

 

Repatination by a previous owner is always a possibility, I agree, and is very difficult to confirm. 'Natural' repatination I am not too sure about - I have in my collection a beautiful iron tsuba, its ryo-hitsu filled with raw, copper-like umagane, and these have not changed their colour one iota over the past 20 years!

 

Regards, John L.

[Grey Doffin]

If the dealer who sold this on ebay was in Japan, and even with a few dealers in the West, I would expect it to have been repatinated before the sale if any patina was compromised. I don't think repatination of shakudo is that big a deal for a dealer in Japan.

Of course, I'm just guessing here. This could be my 1 cents worth.

Grey

[Bungo]

shakudo repatinate lot faster than iron ( which may be heading to the wrong direction..red rust instead of the good black rust ).

Also some old timer told me saliva helps hasten the repaination process of shakudo.

 

milt the flying ronin

[docliss]

So, can anyone out there tell me how to repatinate my two shakudo umagane - apart, that is, from spitting on them?

 

John L.

[John A Stuart]

Hi John, I'm sure you've seen this, but just in case.

 

Rokusho is a traditional Japanese compound for inducing patination in decorative non-ferrous metals, especially several alloys which are nearly unknown outside Japan. Shakudo becomes dark blue-violet, shibuichi misty aqua, and kuromido dark coppery black; rokusho was generally used to patinate all types of mokume-gane as well. Although other patination agents can be used on these metals, some artisans prefer to maintain tradition despite the unavailability of premixed rokusho outside Japan.

Several different formulas have been proposed to replicate the commercial product:

• In a container made of glass, porcelain, or copper, dissolve 6g copper acetate, 2g calcium carbonate, and 2g sodium hydroxide in 150ml water. After a week, siphon or decant the clear liquid from the top; just before use, add another 2g copper sulfate.

• Dissolve 4g copper acetate, 1g copper nitrate, 1g cupric chloride, and 4g copper sulfate in 1L distilled water.

• Dissolve 60g copper acetate and 60g copper sulfate in a 2L solution of white vinegar diluted 5-12% with water.

 

 

John

[docliss]

John, very many thanks for that - I shall certainly try one of those formulae.

 

Regards, John L.

[John A Stuart]

You're welcome. I would try on a piece with which you could live with a poor result first. I don't have the cojones to try it myself. John

[Strider]

Not to be insulting, but an even simpler explanation might be that it was a cheap fitting when it was made and was never really in great shape to start with. Scott

[docliss]

Dear Scott

 

If you are suggesting that the quality of the nanako on ko-kinko work was generally lower than that found on better, later Edo work, you may well be correct. But you only have to look closely at early, high quality Goto work to see the effect that prolonged wear has on the more exposed surfaces.

 

Regards, John L.

[John A Stuart]

Hi John L., I have a pdf file that has step by step instructions for rokusho if you want. John

[docliss]

Yes, please, I would very much like to have it. With thanks, J.

[Rich T]

Dear Scott

 

If you are suggesting that the quality of the nanako on ko-kinko work was generally lower than that found on better, later Edo work, you may well be correct. But you only have to look closely at early, high quality Goto work to see the effect that prolonged wear has on the more exposed surfaces.

 

Regards, John L.

 

John is correct. You can find many well crafted and papered kozuka, kogai and even tsuba where the nanako is all but missing on one end due to ware. This is very common indeed not just in Ko Goto, but Ko Mino and Ko Kinko as well.

 

Rich

[Brian]

John(s)

 

I also find these 2 sites very helpful, and reactive metal studios is also the one stop shop for all the patina formulas and metals such as shakudo, shibuichi etc.

Try these: http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/directo ... bject/86/1

http://www.reactivemetals.com/Pages/rmspat.htm#rokusho

 

Lots of interesting reading there

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Hi Brian, The rokusho pdf I had mentioned actually comes from the reactive metals site you provided. John

[IanB]

All,

It has always been my belief that the alloys used by the Japanese patinated of their own accord given time. The fact that they had to be patinated initially by some chemical treatment was simply to obviate the need for the maker to leave it kicking around for years before he could sell it. I also understood that handling these alloys actually speeded up the natural patination process, or perhaps it would be better to say repair it, because of the chemical composition of our sweat.

 

Since few of us have lumps of unpatinated shakudo around to see if this is true, we might take copper as an analogy. When installed, copper pipe fittings are bright raw metal but after a year or so in a dry indoor atmosphere they acquire that lovely foxy red patina we so admire in tosogu.

 

I think one of the complicating factors in all of this is the varying nature of the alloys concerned, particularly in the case of shakudo. We have all come across fittings which are hardly black at all and look distinctly coppery. I've no doubt these were made from alloys in which the amount of gold was skimped to save on costs. As a former chemist, long since de-frocked, I have tried to understand the underlying chemistry of shakudo patination but still cannot really understand the role the gold plays. Research at the British Museum has shown that the black patina is copper oxide, so what effect is the gold having? I remember reading that a European spent time at the Japanese Mint in the Meiji period researching alloys that gave the same coloured patina as shakudo but did not contain any gold. Apparently it was for producing medals. He was successful but I cannot now find the reference, although I seem to remember his alloy contained arsenic and antimony. A consiiderable area for study here.

 

Ian