Could You?

[Wim V]

Alex makes an interesting point I think.  Sometimes you see hagiri which can look like nothing more than a hairline of a few millimetre length, but which is considered a fatal flaw because the blade would probably break if it would be used again for making a hard impact.  I wonder what would happen with this tachi if (hypothetically) it would be used for making a hard cut, considering the "battle scar" on the edge?  I can understand the sword has a lot of positive elements, which have been summed up already, and they justify the juyo status, but I can't help wondering if this chip would be fatal or not in practical use ...

[Ray Singer]

He liked the sword but not the chip so had it filled with gold. Similar to kintsugi but not on the same level.

 

Interesting, I actually had the same thought when I saw the aforementioned Etchu Norishige with hakobore and was surprised I have never seen the approach taken. I would love to see this gold repair if you are able to provide photos at some point.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Lots of opinions (!), but to squeeze in another point of view I believe this interesting sword is evidence of the fact that the NBTHK gives substantial weight to the historical importance of pieces they examine and particularly those of the Juyo designation. Signed and dated  ubu early Nanbokucho blades are rare to very rare, the smith is uncommon and in a good lineage and if we can assume it was damaged (like a boxer's nose that is broken is "damaged") during koto times in particular, than I would view the cut marks as more a badge of honor that a killer demerit. It is likely that the sword has lasted many years since the kizu and survived many opportunities to be shortened, at which time the mei and date could have been incorporated as inlays into the new nakago. Further the sayagaki is done by Homma Kunzan one of the two important Japanese scholars who saved countless swords from destruction during the Occupation based on the argument that they were historical art objects and not just weapons of war.

 Arnold F.

[Ryan]

I wonder if the presence of this flaw could have been what 'saved' this blade from being shortened in the first place? If that were actually the case then isn't the kizu owed a certain degree of respect for having a hand in allowing us to study an unaltered piece of history? Note that these speculations (from a novice) are operating under the assumption that the blade was actually damaged in battle pre-edo. 

[Alan F]

Arnold, you are romanticizing. Look back to my last post where I said, "Won't be quite so romantic then."

 

The real question should have been: If you had $55,000 burning a hole in your pocket, would you buy this sword? But most of you do not have $55,000 to throw away, so the point is moot. 

 

Like I said before: One or two small kiri komi on the mune might be seen to be a mark of pride, and good for conversation. A gaping hole on the ha, I'm not so sure. 

 

For arguments sake. What if it had two such holes in the ha (another one further up on the ha)? Would you still be interested (at that price)?

 

Pietro

[Brian]

Pietro,

You sound like someone who asks an opinion, and then argues with the result until it matches how you feel

Arnold is fairly high up in the Nihonto tree, and his "romantiscm" probably tells more about us, and our lack of in depth knowledge than it does about him. Hypothesizing about 2 holes in the ha is just trying to shift the goalposts until the opinions all match. The fact is, it is a top sword and has top papers, and if we don't like it, it is irrelevant as we are not the target market anyways.
 

[Guido]

Pietro, in the short period of time you're on NMB we already learned about you that you seem to be obsessed with the monetary value of things, and it also seems you like to argue for argument's sake (maybe you should team up with Adrian?). I hope in time your posts will be as sensible and well thought through as Arnold's, but for the time being, I find your "contributions" rather annoying. And yes, of course everybod is entitled to his/her opinion, but not all opinions are equally valid.

 

Now go ahead and tell us (again) that you just tried being funny ...

[Stephen]

I like Brian's goalpost analogy and cant wait for him to be drop kicked threw them.

 

Arnold thank you for a fine post.

[Zoom Rabbit]

*(Puts on his Indiana Jones hat.)*

 

That sword belongs in a museum!

 

Just kidding. I think the sword belongs in a large enough collection of nihonto that it could be appreciated in its proper context. That rules out me, and anyone else who can't afford the price tag...but if the seller holds firm on that, it should wait long enough for just that buyer to come along.

 

Also, that much damage would bother me. I'd own, but wouldn't feel good about it unless I had a room full of old swords in shira-saya.

[drbvac]

I am afraid it would drive me insane = like a great big dent in the front of a 1965 Ferrari - nope 

[jason_mazzy]

Hypothetically: sword was for sale at $6000 USD and the only catch was you could never sell or gift the sword to anyone, would you purchase it and enjoy it for what it is?

[Wayben]

I'm certainly not in the habit of paying that kind of price for the blades that I buy.  But...if I were, and I had a nice collection of blades in that range, I'd probably be interested in something like that.  Every blade has imperfections of some sort and we weigh those against the positives of the blade all the time when we think about a purchase.  That blade has a lot to offer.  Glass half full vs. half empty kind of thing.

[drbvac]

Well then = thats like getting the Ferrari for 4000.00      DIfferent question - put it this way - if I had 55G to spend on nihonto I am sure I could find one or two others I would be much happier with @@

[Kronos]

Hypothetically: sword was for sale at $6000 USD and the only catch was you could never sell or gift the sword to anyone, would you purchase it and enjoy it for what it is?

 

Without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Overall I guess it boils down to where you're coming from, if you're after 1 great sword then this may not be the one, on the other hand if you collect Bizen and have 4 or 5 other juyo+ like a Fukuoka ichimonji, a Morimitsu, a Mitsutada and a Tomonari then this would fit in perfectly with that collection. It all comes down to context.

[Greg F]

Hello All,

 

This is a difficult one but im sure if I had the income to own swords of this price I would love this one as I like the battle scar factor on such an old beautiful blade. Nicer than the 9 broken noses ive had, 5 from boxing haha.

 

Jason my answer would be yes if i had the 6000 spare.

 

Great thread, thanks.

 

Greg

[jason_mazzy]

Well then = thats like getting the Ferrari for 4000.00      DIfferent question - put it this way - if I had 55G to spend on nihonto I am sure I could find one or two others I would be much happier with @@

 

 

I agree with you on this of course. I most definitely, and I believe the OP was suggesting the same, was not saying there was no better option at that price but saying could you enjoy this sword for what it is and learn from it as a fine work.

[Stephen]

James makes a very good point. we all know nihonto is a rich mans game, and for the biggest part most of us collect on the lower fringe. So many got /get hung up on the price, this sword is for a collector who wouldn't bat a eye at for half a year wages for others, has several high end swords, and it fits nicely in that collection. I kinda like the gold tooth idea but its not a fix as it never will be. Some good thoughts guys thanks!

[Darcy]

Well it's 87cm nagasa so could be shortened to 75cm+ easily and retain signature. It's also non fatal so could be polished out technically. Either way you have a flawless juyo nanbokucho tachi but then it becomes like everything else from the period and you miss out on what makes it special as generally ubu swords like this are on the juyo bunkazai - kokuho level and you have no chance of owning.

 

This cannot be polished out. A chip like this on such a long blade is one reason why it would become suriage. Suriage is a much more graceful solution to this than trying to polish it out. The sword would take on the aspect of an axe and have a very narrow ji compared to the shinogiji ... it would not perform properly and it would look god awful. 

 

Plus to polish such a thing out means that the upper part of the damaged area needs to be lower than the lowest spot of the entire hamon and this is not the case according to the oshigata. This would force the hamon to be interrupted in several spots on the blade. And those would become fatal flaws. 

 

So, polishing it out is not an answer but suriage or just leaving it as is and not using it are answers. It's fine to preserve the sword and not use it. 

 

*Correction* looks like its the fabric getting onto the shinogi ji lol.

[b.hennick]

I saw those and looked at  the oshigata. It seems to me that those are the covering of the stand the blade rests on. The material rises up against the blade and makes it appear that there are indeed bite marks. I'll leave the second explanation to someone else as I do not have a second one....unless there are bite marks made after the oshigata....

[Stephen]

bite marks as in sword strikes on mune??

[Darcy]

bite marks as in sword strikes on mune??

 

I'm in a dark room and the fuzz on the fabric makes it look like someone took an angle grinder to the mune. Realized after I posted it's just the fabric covering the shinogi ji... 

 

The chip on its own is no big deal compared to the length and signed state of the sword. Often times Juyo blades are not perfect. Older blades lack a boshi sometimes and can pass Juyo. 

 

So everything is weighed out.

 

Do we have examples of this period? What is their average condition? Yes this blade has a blemish on it but does that weigh in heavily vs the fact that we have a rare signed example of this smith? 

 

So I agree with this one being Juyo. It's entirely up to a collector to decide if that chip in the ha is a buy or no buy decision. 

 

I deal with this a lot: people tell me well, I really want a perfect one. They may be talking about an Ichimonji or something. Wellllllll, I want it to be signed.... welllllll I want it to be ubu.... wellllllllll it would be better if it had no flaws. Each one of those cases is answered yes. yes it would be better if it had no flaws.

 

But the price would not be the same, the price would be a lot higher. 

 

What someone needs to look at here is he's got a really long and rare Kamakura blade essentially after it saw real use. The price is not so far off the price it would take if someone knocks the entire lower part off by suriage. 

 

Does anyone here think that would improve the piece? Nope. But taking the chip out makes it elevate immediately because it is what it is. Original. Original is really, really important. 

 

In this case by not going suriage or not repolishing it to death trying to get this out, they took the (honorable) sword and retired it. 

 

And that chip probably saved the sword. 

 

So I am fine with it. 

 

Summing: late where I am and I should have looked at all this in the morning.

 

In this I am implying that the blade is more like a $80k blade or more if that chip is not there.

 

With the chip and the price: collector's decision if it meets his goals. And that's fine, some will agree, some won't that's what makes a market. 

[Darcy]

I saw those and looked at  the oshigata. It seems to me that those are the covering of the stand the blade rests on. The material rises up against the blade and makes it appear that there are indeed bite marks. I'll leave the second explanation to someone else as I do not have a second one....unless there are bite marks made after the oshigata....

 

I changed my post. There are no bite marks. It was the white fuzz around the fuzzy backdrop thing he uses on this and I don't have enough screen contrast in the dark to see the fabric. So it just looked like I was seeing THROUGH he bite mark to the other side and the white fuzz all around looks just like it would look if they were attacked with an angle grinder.

 

I answered my question though why nobody noticed them in the oshigata. Because they don't exist.

[Kronos]

Of course you are right Darcy, it couldn't be polished *out* but polished down a bit so it wasn't so gaping but suriage would be the solution. I'm not entirely sure why I chucked polishing in there now...

 

My main point is things can be done but if they are then it becomes a less desirable sword and the increased price tag is largely due to it being ubu.

[Shamsy]

It would be the greatest shame if someone were to polish or alter the blade, all to try and satisfy their idea of making it 'better'.

[jason_mazzy]

It would be the greatest shame if someone were to polish or alter the blade, all to try and satisfy their idea of making it 'better'.

Might be the wisest post ever posted on nmb

[Darcy]

Of course you are right Darcy, it couldn't be polished *out* but polished down a bit so it wasn't so gaping but suriage would be the solution. I'm not entirely sure why I chucked polishing in there now... My main point is things can be done but if they are then it becomes a less desirable sword and the increased price tag is largely due to it being ubu.

 

 

You could actually make a daisho out of this one blade.

 

Sorry if this induces nightmares.

 

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

 

[Pete Klein]

OMG!  LOL -- I made the same mistake.  I kept looking at the mune asking myself how the damn thing stayed together with huge chunks of the mune missing.  ROFLMAO!

 

I hope someone sent this thread to Fred to read as he'd be laughing his ass off!

[Lee Bray]

Interesting, I actually had the same thought when I saw the aforementioned Etchu Norishige with hakobore and was surprised I have never seen the approach taken. I would love to see this gold repair if you are able to provide photos at some point.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

It's in a friends collection but if I can, and remember, I will.

It's worth mentioning that the the hakobore on my friend's sword was quite rough and had cracks in the steel that the gold inlay could affix to mechanically. The chip in the Morisuke looks quite clean so an inlay might not hold very well.

[Guido]

I remember seeing an Osafune Masamitsu naginata-naoshi katana in Japan about 10 years ago (that is now in the US, I believe) that had a few small hakobore in front of the habaki. Jūyō, and a sayagaki by Mr. Tanobe that says chin-chin chō-chō. And work by Masamitsu isn't remotely as rare as the sword being discussed here.

 

It's probably because I still haven't attained nihontō satori yet, but a sword with flaws on the edge would drive me insane, no matter what the price is.

[Jean]

Are thou not fatal vision, sensible to feeling as to sight.....