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Could You?

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b.hennick Grand Master

b.hennick

Posted
Posted

I would have a problem with that. A few years ago Bob Benson had a Norishige with a chip like that. The rest of the blade was fine. He was asking $25k I did not consider buying it because of the chip. I was told that it would never become a juyo. The blade that you pointed to is a juyo so the team that examined it thought that it was OK to receive juyo. 

  • Like 2
Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

How do we know that was on there when the sword was papered?

Right or wrong, it would bother me. No way to know for sure that it was done in battle and not when messing around (although I am sure it was done in battle, there is no guarantee)

Beautiful sword. But that would disturb be as an owner. Can't ignore price. If it was $2000 it would bother me a lot less.

  • Like 2
Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

I suppose you have to take into account some folk will enjoy the battle scars and see them as a bonus, even as bad as they appear to be.

 

Bit too much for me though.

  • Like 1
paulb Grand Master

paulb

Posted
Posted

It was there when the sword was papered as it appears on the oshigata.

I have to say I would have a problem with it too. Its a shame because there is so much to see in it but I know as soon as I started to look I would be drawn to the damage. I regard that in my weakness more than anything else and dont doubt I miss a lot of interesting material by not blotting out such faults.

  • Like 1
nagamaki - Franco Veteran

nagamaki - Franco

Posted
Posted

 

my question is could you live with the finger catcher ??

http://www.nihonto.com/7.8.14.html

 

On several occasions in the past Bushido has sent otherwise truly wonderful swords with "finger catchers" for consideration. In discussing these swords with Bob Benson he explained, 'there are two kinds of collectors, one where no matter how hard they try their eye goes straight to the flaw, and then there are collectors who have no problem. At this point I'm still trying to learn how to control my eye, with no luck  :freak:

  • Like 1
Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

On several occasions in the past Bushido has sent otherwise truly wonderful swords with "finger catchers" for consideration. In discussing these swords with Bob Benson he explained, 'there are two kinds of collectors, one where no matter how hard they try their eye goes straight to the flaw, and then there are collectors who have no problem. At this point I'm still trying to learn how to control my eye with no luck  :freak:

 

I'm not so bothered about flaws etc these days, especially in Koto, but price has to reflect this.

  • Like 1
Kronos Experienced

Kronos

Posted
Posted

This type of flaw doesn't bother me so much as forging flaws. I can understand a sword having a hard life in this way and being used, but something that's polished down beyond recognition or has some ware drives me nuts.

  • Like 3
Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Don't get me wrong...I am not one to turn away flaws, especially on old blades. I can accept forging flaws on koto, and many of my swords have chips and nicks.

I think in this case it is just the severity of the damage that disturbs me. If it was just a few mm, I would be fine with it.
I also fully appreciate the fact that the sword can still be appreciated, and has tons to teach. I would love to own it. I am only saying that at a certain price level, damage of that severity would disturb me. It is impossible to say "price not being a factor" as for the average working man to whom that level of ownership demands more than a year's salary..it is impossible to separate flaws from enjoyment. Would you love to drive a Ferrari that had a huge gouge down the one side of the car? I'd love to own and drive it...but it would bother me.

  • Like 1
Jean

Jean

Posted
Posted

I should say that the interest of this sword lays in its rarety rather than in its outstanding quality. Perhaps it is why it was granted Juyo papers. Not for me. The price reflecs the rarety of the blade.

  • Like 1
paulb Grand Master

paulb

Posted
Posted

I read the write up on Fred's site and can see why it might be so highly thought of. As Jean says it is very rare, signed and Ubu and has signs of use through a turbulent historic period. So has a lot going for it. Unfortunately while I can appreciate all those positives I am in the same mind as Joe, it would hit me when I drew the sword from the saya and stay with me long after I put it back.

Fortunately there are those for whom these things are less important and  the historical and rarity make up for the damage recieved through it's long life.

  • Like 1
Toryu2020 Grand Master

Toryu2020

Posted
Posted

to answer the question - absolutely!

this blade is exceptionally beautiful, in hand one can see all the features of nanbokucho Bizen. it reminds one of the work of Kanemitsu rather than anything that came out of kozori later. ubu in every sense, with the marks of a hard life still intact. whomever carried this sword cherished it from the day it got damaged - it was papered in this condition. after pouring over the blade, remove the nakago and find it is signed and dated! not only beautiful, not only proven, but rare with historical evidence. it may not be pristine but to me it is perfect! i should be so lucky to one day own such a sword!

  • Like 7
Jussi Ekholm Veteran

Jussi Ekholm

Posted
Posted

I must say I am really torn...

 

That sword has a lovely sugata, it's somewhat perfect for my collecting taste. 87,7 cm, 3,8 cm sori and wide and strong sword, signed and dated... :Drool: I will say I don't know how Morisuke ranks in the hierarchy among Bizen smiths but for me that is not a big deal because it's more important for me that I like the sword.

 

But then comes the but... You can find so many amazing swords in this price range. That is the really tricky part as I think the sword is amazing and I think I could look past the flaw but when I'm thinking about the possibility of investing that much money into a sword it gets really complicated. So I'm kinda balancing between the things Thomas and Brian said before. I'm with Thomas that sword in overall would be almost perfect for me collecting wise but I also share the view that Brian told about wanting a sword in best possible condition after certain price. I can't even dream of shopping in this price bracket so it will be irrelevant for me aside from dreaming. :laughing:

 

The answer to original question, yes I could live with a flaw like that on the diamond of my collection.

 

 

  • Like 4
Alan F Contributor

Alan F

Posted
Posted

So may PLUSES for this sword and the hours would be long in studying it. 

 

my question is could you live with the finger catcher ?? lets not debate  the price just if you could live with it on such a fine sword by a juyo smith.

 

http://www.nihonto.com/7.8.14.html

 

No, I don't think that I would buy it. So many nice Juyo swords available. So little time and money. Why should this particular sword be so very desirable?

Okay: This is a signed Juyo sword from a relatively obscure smith, and supposedly relatively rare. It's long and it is signed. But it's not on the radar for most collectors, I would think. Must stay focused regarding what to collect. If you want rare, better to buy something from a rare sought after smith. 

 

In his write-up, he says: it is not clear to which lineage he belongs

Further, he says: As a whole, they are inferior to Kanemitsu in skill and nie is more emphasized.

So, why is it so special?

 

A small kiri komi on the mune is a nice thing to have, and to perhaps brag about. A missing tooth on the cutting edge would not appeal to me. But to each to his own.

 

As Brian said, no way to know for sure if it was done in battle. How do we know that it wasn't from some misadventure that occurred long after this sword was in service. Maybe when swords were being confiscated during the second world war? Who knows.

 

If this sword were being offered on Aoi Art's website for $55,000 US, would you be fawning over it?

 

Pietro

  • Like 1
Alan F Contributor

Alan F

Posted
Posted

Yep! I would refuse it, and never second guess my decision. Too many swords for sale. The fewer flaws, or whatever, the better. 

 

You go ahead and buy this one, if it really appeals to you. It is easy to be sucked in by a few words displayed on a web page. Oh, it's rare and special (and was involved in a great battle). Try and sell it later. See what you can get for it with that big hangnail. Won't be quite so romantic then.

 

 

Pietro

 

P.S. You can't take the price out of it, because that is a stupid thing to propose. Nothing comes free.

Kronos Experienced

Kronos

Posted
Posted

Well it's 87cm nagasa so could be shortened to 75cm+ easily and retain signature. It's also non fatal so could be polished out technically. Either way you have a flawless juyo nanbokucho tachi but then it becomes like everything else from the period and you miss out on what makes it special as generally ubu swords like this are on the juyo bunkazai - kokuho level and you have no chance of owning.

  • Like 1
cuttingedge59 Community Regular

cuttingedge59

Posted
Posted

In a word , no .

Something like that would bother the hell out of me and then I could probably buy four good blades of the type i like for that sort of money.

Maybe even one or two more.

Beautiful sword though when you look past the flaw.

 

Chris

nz

Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

The "battle scar" in the Hamon makes most hagire I have seen pale into insignificance, but its funny that because it may be considered a "cool battle scar", it makes it some what more acceptable than hagire :laughing:,

 

Does someone want to have a go at how the 2 gaping "chunks missing" in the mune got there.? :dunno:

  • Like 1
Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

Posted
Posted

 

Does someone want to have a go at how the 2 gaping "chunks missing" in the mune got there.? :dunno:

Battle damage from a wayward sword stand.

 

A friend has a similar period blade with a larger hakobore that ran through the hamon, so fatal.

He liked the sword but not the chip so had it filled with gold. Similar to kintsugi but not on the same level.

Still clearly a flaw but it 'restores' the lines, so to speak, and who doesn't like gold?

  • Like 7
Shamsy Mentor

Shamsy

Posted
Posted

I could not make the call after seeing the sword for a few minutes. I would need to carefully consider it over a month or two. I try to avoid impulsive decisions and it's saved me many times.

 

For the fun of it though, at this precise moment it wouldn't worry me. Looks like a beautiful sword and very worthy of proper appreciation and preservation. Clearly several owners have also been of like mind.

Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

Posted
Posted

Battle damage from a wayward sword stand.

 

A friend has a similar period blade with a larger hakobore that ran through the hamon, so fatal.

He liked the sword but not the chip so had it filled with gold. Similar to kintsugi but not on the same level.

Still clearly a flaw but it 'restores' the lines, so to speak, and who doesn't like gold?

Jeez, my one good eyesight! :laughing:

 

Now then, if that's the case, I would likely be happy with the sword, now that the gaping holes are no more.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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