Strangely Mounted Tanto Mystery

[Zoom Rabbit]

Greetings, fellow sword enthusiasts. *(Bows.)*

 

I came across an item at the local antique mall, tagged simply 'short sword.' At first glance it appeared Chinese in nature, too short to be a 'short sword,' I figured it to be a dagger, Chinese mounted in red leather. It was cheap, so I bought it.

 

 

The blade appears to be a Japanese style tanto blade of ten inches or so in length:

 

 

Disassembled, it has components in the style of Japanese koshirae...and the tang is shaped correctly. Unsigned.

 

 

Closeup of the tang. It has some rust, but the end is crudely chiseled. The original mekugi ana was drilled out to accept a larger peg, leaving behind a jagged raised flange around the hole on one side.

 

 

So, what do I have here? I assume it's Chinese like rice noodles...but the blade seems to have some age. Anyone seen this kind of mounting before?

[Thierry BERNARD]

I assume it's Chinese like rice noodles...

I am afraid you are right!!

[Greg F]

Hello Jim, yes this is not Japanese made sorry. All the best.

 

Greg

[Zoom Rabbit]

If I gave the impression that I thought this might be Japanese, I apologize for the confusion.

 

I'm only familiar with Chinese stuff from this century. Does the rust indicate it might be an antique? I've only seen a rusty tang on twentieth century work (or earlier.)

 

I also wonder about the red leather mounting. Has anyone seen this before?

[Gasam]

Heyas,

 

Someone more knowledgeable than me will correct this if wrong, but I do not think it is an old blade or saya. This was clearly made to make someone believe it was a tanto of Japanese origin in my humble opinion.

 

As such, the rust on the nakago will be artificially added, and the leather on the  saya would be artificially aged too (or maybe it is just old leather wrapped around there). Also the shape of the saya would be a figment of the imagination of the maker, (again in my humble opinion, I might be wrong), although Aoi-Art had a wakizashi mounted in kind-of such a saya a while ago. 

 

It is good that you did not fall for the fake. Many would. I remember when I first started looking at nihonto. I was stunned that all the tanto were without the "tanto point" I was sure they were meant to have. I would potentially be an easy target for such a fake. Luckily I googled a lot and studied the nmb. Later books as well. Now, any kind of tanto point-like kissaki raises warnings. 

[Zoom Rabbit]

I've done a lot of google image searching in researching this...and no, there appear to be no other examples of this mounting. I'm going to have to guess that this is unique. Someone probably had a ruined dagger and salvaged the intact pieces to make their own variation. This would explain the larger hole freshly drilled in the tang. The saya and tsuka are both simple leather sleeves, no wood involved in their construction. Apparently, leatherwork was in the maker's bag of tricks, but not woodworking.

 

Being a cheap Chinese blade, there is nothing to be lost in re-mounting it myself. I'll keep an eye out for an appropriately sized tanto with a blade that needs to go, and make a day off project out of it. The tang may be artificially aged, but the presence of rust tells me at least one thing: it isn't stainless steel. I'll give it a second life.

 

If I'm wrong, and this is a standard mounting of some kind..I'd really like to hear about it. I would preserve an ethnographic variation as an example, but if it's someone else's re-mounting, I can do my own work to it.

 

Gonna call this one solved, otherwise. Thanks, guys.

[ROKUJURO]

Zoom Rabbit,

please sign all your posts with at least your first name plus an initial as per Brian's rules.

The item you have found is not close to anything Japanese - none of its parts! The blade does not resemble the standard HIRA ZUKURI shape of TANTO, and the mounting is fantasy at best. Of course you are free to transform the weapon in whatever shape you feel appropriate, but in my opinion any effort is wasted time and energy.

Please have a look at the many beautiful TANTO pictures you can find here on NMB for comparison.   

[Zoom Rabbit]

*Sigh*

 

Please take the time to read my post and note that my name is located very notably in my signature.

 

As for the rest...I will waste my time as I see fit. Have a nice day.

[Brian]

Jim,

What Jean was trying to tell you, is that this is nothing salvaged from something else. It isn't a converted anything, and doesn't have any age to it. It is a pure fantasy Chinese piece designed to deceive someone into thinking it is Japanese. It is a typical example, although each one is individual in its outcome. You may do with it as you wish, but the advice was sound...it would be a waste of time. Since it is your time...you are welcome to do with it as you wish. We are merely here to give advice.

[kissakai]

Hi Jim

My first post had a bit of a hammering and felt just like you but I did add other posts

I have learnt so much from this message board and made some great contacts

When I post I digest what I want and ignore the rest

Jean is one of the best

 

 

Grev UK

[Dr Fox]

 

Being a cheap Chinese blade, there is nothing to be lost in re-mounting it myself. I'll keep an eye out for an appropriately sized tanto with a blade that needs to go, and make a day off project out of it. The tang may be artificially aged, but the presence of rust tells me at least one thing: it isn't stainless steel. I'll give it a second life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re-mount it as what? Treating it as a tanto, and attempting to display it as such, only further adds to the fact it is not!!

You have that situation already!

Yes its your time, but when you post for advice, others spend their time answering you.

 

Try as you might, you won't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. 

[Zoom Rabbit]

Yes, it is true that I am much less knowledgeable than most, if not all, of you guys on this subject. That is why I brought the matter here; while I knew it was of Chinese make, I thought the style of mounting might be a Japanese type I hadn't seen before. I apologize if I wasted anyone's time, but I came earnestly seeking answers.

 

What I don't understand is the negative tone I'm finding. Is this how one treats those less knowledgeable? Is this how one treats a guest? If I were talking to the lot of you in person, I doubt I would get the same hammering.

[Alan F]

You were not "hammered", Jim.

 

You just had higher hopes for this thing than it deserved. Some of the first responders in this thread tried to let you down quite gently and nicely.

 

That "sign your post" thing, is kind of like a last kick in the pants (ass) on your way out the door. It's kind of like a right of initiation on this forum, and never grows tired of itself.

 

Pietro

[Greg F]

Hello Jim, I think it can get a little tiresome for members seeing how many fakes that are out there and maybe people feel you could get more satisfaction from putting your time into learning about real Nihonto, after all this is a forum for Nihonto enthusiasts. Also the thought of real Japanese mounts being put on such a blade would be imho a little disrespectful to the makers. Please dont take anything here personally.Some of us have a bumpy start here but if you stick at it you will be glad you did. If you have a passion to learn more and own Nihonto you come across bumps in the road some times, its all part of the learning. I hope to see you here in the future with your first Nihonto puschase.

 

All the best.

 

Greg

[Zoom Rabbit]

Real Japanese mounts for this blade? Never! I was talking about Chinese mounts for Chinese blade...

 

I am a sword and knife collector, with three (and possibly four) nihonto in my collection. I already discussed one, my wakizashi, in the translation forum. But here's the thing--I collect blades from ALL nations and peoples. Most of my collection is genuine antique in nature, but there are a few of what you would call fakes. I consider them modern commercial swords, and yes, they are mostly Chinese. I do buy damaged pieces if it is something I can repair, which is an enjoyable hobby. I can try my hand at ito-maki, make battle covers and other stuff without damaging something that is authentic Japanese.

 

I will say this. There is no stainless steel or plastic dragon handled sword in my collection.

 

My hopes for this piece were that it had at least been made in the last century, and I appreciate the heads up that the tang was aged artificially. I still don't see what is so contemptible about putting more appropriate mounts on the thing. It's a stout little blade, very sharp. I have a twenty invested in this thing, and if I fix it up I will have something I can sell some day for two twenties. If I do, though, be assured that I would NEVER try to deceive a buyer into thinking it were an authentic Japanese tanto. I believe in karma.

[Guido]

Well, it says in quite bold letters "Dedicated to the Study and Preservation of Genuine Japanese Swords and Fittings" on top of this message board, so that might explain why some people here are not too excited about discussing an artificially aged Chinese dagger with a somewhat Japanese looking blade, or the remounting thereof. Those who initially responded probably thought you might have fallen victim to buying a fake of a Japanese sword (at least I did), but since you state you are aware of its Chinese origin, why post it on a forum dedicated to Japanese art?

[Dr Fox]

Okay, time to be nice!

 

Your Question: “So, what do I have here? I assume it's Chinese like rice noodles...but the blade seems to have some age. Anyone seen this kind of mounting before?”

 

You posted in: General Nihonto Related Discussion.

 

Once Thierry and Greg gave you the heads up Its not Nihonto, but chinese steel. Would it not be fair to say, that there cannot be any further Nihonto Related Discussion, on this item?

 

Not to add to what has already been written, suffice to say your enthusiasm is apparent. But in this case you visited the right place, but came in through the wrong door is all.

Dont be put off, I have had a bigger slapping than you had, lol.

[Guido]

Okay, time to be nice!

I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, but in any case, he hasn't been treated hostile by anyone so far. I also disagree that he came to the right place - this forum doesn't deal with modern Chinese made blades at all. Does that mean he isn't welcome? I only can speak for myself, but he certainly is as long as he abides by the rules and stays within the topics of this message board.

[Dr Fox]

No Guido

Totally directed at Jim. But I will agree to disagree, on one of your points:

'Yes' we do deal with Chinese fakes, copies and such like.

In many cases in depth both identifying, and comparing the quality of such items meant to copy, and deceive.

Advising many posters, that chinese is what they have.

We also have a library of examples under 'Fake Swords" on this forum.

Your other points are a given.

[Brian]

Jim,

You have a point...your name is in your signature.

As for the rest, refer to Guiod's comments. I don't think anyone was nasty at all. You were told diplomatically it was junk. You continued to try and find some redeeming features in it...you were told less diplomatically it is junk. You explained your right to collect junk....we agreed, and told you it would be pointless to remount junk. But that is certainly your right to do. End of discussion.

If you consider that a negative tone, you should see me in real life!

Stick around...those that come through the barrage eventually understand our point of view, and will themselves oneday join the dark side.

[Zoom Rabbit]

I get it now.

 

I shouldn't have posted this topic in this forum. My question wasn't generally nihonto related enough.

 

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

[Gordon Sanders]

It is never a waste if you learned. After all the only way to learn is to fail. You don't get smarter with success :-)

 

 

I get it now.

I shouldn't have posted this topic in this forum. My question wasn't generally nihonto related enough.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.