Show Us Your High Class Tosogu

[Davidarmy]

D Easley

[Ian]

As we are back on the subject. With intermingled gold and silver sea spray for that little extra 

 

 

[Greg F]

Nice fittings Ian I really like how deep the carvings look and seems to have all the gold and silver intact too. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Brian]

Better than 'nice'

A LOT better

[Heringsdorf]

As we are back on the subject. With intermingled gold and silver sea spray for that little extra

 

Very nice set. Are they signed?

[Darcy]

Tsuba with design of waves and spray

Unfortunately, there is no signature.

Doubtfullly Omori as there are a million copies for every legit one.

 

The true Omori works embrace a naturally chaotic look most of the time. The copies fall into mechanical reproduction.

 

I just viewed a nice collection of Omori Eishu in Italy. The first gimei and robot made. The second papered and robotic... doubtful but better than the junk. The third with splashing waves, chaotic like nature, silvered where they break and not reproducible. The real deal. A great education to see them side by side.

 

Everyone thinks they found Omori waves until they have the real ones side by side. Then it's an epiphany.

[sabi]

Awesome post Darcy, I know very little about these type of tsuba but the difference in composition is striking.

 

Found this example on the MFA website, the chaotic nature is abundant in this tsuba and the overall feel versus the "robotic" variants is far more dramatic. Great stuff!

 

[Curran]

Evan:  I don't think that one would pass shinsa.

But then I recently saw a Natsuo tsuba that I would have thought gimei since the workmanship just didn't seem on par with what I'd expect of him.

It looked dubious to me, but the NBTHK passed it this year.

 

Just in case, I compared this MFA Teruhide to the signatures examples in the Wakayama Vol I..

Thus, even more sure it wouldn't pass.

[Tanto54]

Dear Evan,

 

I agree with Curran on the MFA one you posted.  While I do not know if it is true, I've always heard that another indicator is that true Omori School spray on waves is less likely to fall out (better setting method?).  The one you posted has lots of missing inlay. 

[Ford Hallam]

I'll be the Devil's advocate here, as is my want

 

Considering the various comments made about 'genuine Omori waves' it seems to me that a point that is very much applied in other areas of art appreciation is being overlooked in this case.

 

The notion that the very first Omori wave tsuba was made and was in that first attempt simply perfect and the 'gold standard' by which all other thereafter must be judged seems counter intuitive.  That there wasn't an ongoing development of technique, design evolution and refinement seems unlikely to me.

 

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that if we can't see an evolution in a school's work then no matter how precise and exact the work is it is by definition mechanical in artistic terms. And that's exactly how a school's creativity dies out or becomes decadent. Without artistic inspiration and growth there's always a very real danger of work becoming overly elaborate and technical solely for the sake of showing off clever technique. " Never mind the artistry, or lack thereof, look at all the fine detail".

 

But a careful examination of just those well known Omori pieces that have been published and can reasonably easily studied from photographs does in fact reveal a significant degree of variation in terms of composition and technique among the various masters of the school, yet we still hear a narrative that speaks of the school as being somehow a single entity in terms of output. This is simply too simplistic.

 

I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't think this topic has been comprehensively examined. As far as I'm aware there has been no real aesthetic study of the 'Omori wave' , no survey of all the supposedly authentic works nor any presentation of any sort of school development. This sort of investigation is standard practice in almost all other fields of art study. With much of tosogu study, though, we're still working with unexamined 'pearls of wisdom' that, with just a little investigation and analysis all too often appear to be unsubstantiated opinion or worse.

 

With the previous in mind who made this?

It is signed and papered.

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

But a careful examination of just those well known Omori pieces that have been published and can reasonably easily studied from photographs does in fact reveal a significant degree of variation in terms of composition and technique among the various masters of the school, yet we still hear a narrative that speaks of the school as being somehow a single entity in terms of output. This is simply too simplistic.

 

 

 

 

Apologies, I have deleted a portion of my post as I would rather keep the focus of this thread on show us your high class tosogu and not digress into the genuineness of Omori waves. Thank you.

Edited September 29, 2016 by nagamaki

[christianmalterre]

and...this is most probably not of Chinese "origin" here!

 

(the Chinese are too XXXX! so to realise between a fake and a real)

 

so let us produce a real fake per se..(least if time and budget seem to ben eventually realised???)..(of course! nobody will humble about...least till yet they (collectors) did not...fell about...

who dares to know?

LOL!

 

(le chévalier du Mont Gilbert!)....  !​

 

a brave world we do live in...with brave artists working for us collectors....

 

Christian

[Brian]

Ford,

The first and obvious answer would be Omori Teruhide. But knowing you, it is something else entirely. Awaiting the hammer drop

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Brian

 

 

why so suspicious?

 

Omori Terumitsu, the 3rd generation master.  My point being that if we were to line up a dozen or so tsuba by the first three generations I think the variations would become very clear.

 

Here's a link to a papered 1st generation Omori Teruhide. As can easily be seen it's very different in style to this example by the 3rd master.

 

As far as the actual layout or composition of this fairly classical wave design the only way to really study the differences would be to create line drawings of them. That way the layout can be seen and understood without distraction. Perhaps I should get my apprentice on the case....

[Brian]

Thanks Ford. Obviously side by sides like this one are of limited use considering variations in their own work over time, lighting, angles etc, but would be nice to have a few genuine side by sides to compare with. I think that line drawing idea would be of great use.

Here I have put 2 of them, do we have some other generations to add to this pic that will be of use?

[Curran]

There has been significant study on wave forms in various schools. As far as I know, it all remains in private ownership. I don't know how widely it has been shared, but good to know the level of academic progress going on outside NBTHK, such as Ford's pending alloy database.

 

Ford's comparison of 1st and 3rd gen Omori is a nice example of wave form comparison, as if they were fingerprints. I haven't read much on Omori school, but can transfer what I've read on other schools to these examples. I haven't seen or held the 3rd gen one in person, but can comment the 1st gen example listed- it isn't just the carving of the waves out of the plate, but also the carving into the plate. It was a very heavy tsuba, which I did not realize until I picked it up.

 

There is the matter of personal taste. I respect Ford's point, thought I prefer the shodai waves as simpler and stronger, in my personal opinion.

Click to expand the attached image: I prefer the waves of the shodai Kanshiro (left) over the goto training influenced waves of the nidai Kanshiro (right). One generation, but a good bit of difference. The sandai has waves that are incredibly distinct from the shodai-nidai. Many people prefer the nidai and sandai's works as more complex and intricate. As with the sandai Omori pictured by Ford, the nidai and sandai of the Nishigaki school liked to wrap over the mimi with their design.

[sabi]

Exactly why I should stick to old iron, there I at least have half a clue ='D

 

My latest acquisition, one that I'm sure many of you will recognize. This thread needs more old iron!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CHEN CHEN]

Choshu Tsuba Chinese dragon

 

[Ford Hallam]

Chen Chen

 

you made this a black Friday for me ...I've had my eye on that one for a while now, and have been saving up spare tsuba cash and hoping it would still be available when I was able to grab it.  I suppose the family will now at least get some Christmas presents instead

[Stephen]

Well Ford you can at least make one....

[Ford Hallam]

Stephen, that was actually why I wanted it, to do a study of the technique as I think it's a very fine example of that type of chiselled iron work.

[Brian]

Kinda fits into this thread...but wanted to ask Ford if he saw this post on FB. Apparently sold in Russia for over $15K.
I think it's a beauty. Thanks to Roy L for the link.

 

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

Brian, a friend of mine had one of these, but un-gilded. I was covetous of it for many years :-)

 

Actually the base is classic Miyao Co. stand but the figure is incongrous. It it were a genuine Miyao piece the skin of the man would typically be a ruddy reddish copper, and the bronze a more brown tone. I'd expect to see some silvered details also. I think this has been 'fiddled' with or jazzed up to enhance its saleability.  And that gold hammer head is too much :-) . If you do an image search for Miyao bronze you'll see how this fellow is a little different.

[John A Stuart]

Miyao Co. was concurrent with Tiffany and Co. and was for the export market and I wonder if like Tiffany they had different levels of excess for different pocket books. John

[Curran]

    Learning something new. Thanks Brian, Ford, and for the info from John too.

I'd seen examples in Auction catalogues, but never read up on it until today.

[Darcy]

For the record, and no offense intended at Ford's analysis which is one set of opinions and valid as any others, the MFA example is the typical copy of Omori that is around in my limited opinion. There are 100 of these for every legit one. This includes the FK higher up and if you just google "Omori" you will find a half a dozen for sale by dealers, some with fake Omori Teruhide signatures and the dealers insisting they are Omori school. The main thing they have in common is that none of them have any reliable attributions from any reliable sources... but everyone selling them will certainly assure you of their opinion that it is "Omori School Work."

 

I even saw NTHK papered Omori Teruhide that was not correct work and the mei didn't match any of the Omori Teruhide in any book with standout errors. Because something is papered doesn't mean it is legitimate, it means the guy making the papers thinks it's legitimate. 

 

Something I learned in gemstone collecting is that sapphire and ruby are the same mineral (corundum) with different impurities. Every impurity that tints a sapphire will generate different colors. When you get a red sapphire we call that ruby. If the red is not saturated enough it is a pink sapphire. A pink sapphire is marketable at a fraction of the cost of a ruby.

 

So there is some grey line between pink sapphire and ruby. It's the same impurity that gives them their color (chromium). So that begs the question, where is the line between pink sapphire and red ruby?

 

The answer is: if you are selling it, it's a ruby, if you're buying it it's a pink sapphire.

 

With these Omori-like things with no signatures or bad Teruhide mei that are "surely Omori work" ... well there is a lot of stuff that looks like Kotetsu or looks like Shinkai or looks like Masamune and the same thing is almost always true. 

 

If you look at the Juyo examples you will see that whatever technique Teruhide came up with, it was faithfully handed down to the students. I posted a Hidetomo before and he's not even in the main line of succession and it is the same craftsmanship. 

 

Maybe maybe if maybe but students had to learn maybe unsigned maybe if but low quality maybe works are maybe unsigned because maybe students in the workshop or less well known students maybe if but made these things and that's why they are Omori-like but not in the same style as the great work. 

 

If you want to spend your money on that kind of thing, excellent and everyone is welcome to a theory on unpapered mumei work of any sort. Sword, kodogu, art. That thing you found in the pawn shop might be a van Gogh because it kind of reminds you of what a van Gogh is supposed to look like too or maybe it was by one of the students of his students. Or maybe it was just someone who saw the original and was influenced by it or it had marketing appeal and they made something similar without knowing how to do it step by step from first principles. 

 

Occam's razor I think points to the last way but... everything is just an opinion when it comes to mumei so choose your poison.

 

With Omori, again in my opinion, until you put a really legitimate copy in your hands there is always going to be some confusion. Once you have a legitimate copy in your hands then the doubt vanishes and the rest of the stuff in the grey zone fades away into black. 

 

This is not a lot different from the opinions on Masamune, where the doubts were raised in the late 1800s and then exaggerated in the newspapers to make a big scandalous paper selling noise out of it, and that caused a lot of reaction by experts in later decades saying anyone who was confused needed to handle the real deal to resolve the confusion. 

 

There is no confusion about Masamune if you handle the real deal. Not "this is certainly made by a top Soshu smith but we will accept the old Honami designation (for now)" type of description on the back of the Juyo, the description that is not read by westerners nor translated by dealers wishing to sell a Masamune and therein letting you do your own homework... which is not usually done because people do not want to disclose their big score for fear and greed in that someone is going to cut in front of them and take it. But the real legitimate work is breathtaking and you understand that if there really no Masamune then there is nobody in the literature to whom you can attribute this work. 

 

So it becomes work of someone so high level that he's above everyone ever documented YET somehow escaped documentation himself... and then this guy Masamune who fits the bill is just some invention of Hideyoshi's era? That's two stretches that are hard to believe, whereas if you accept both it is a much more simple explanation.

 

Back to Omori the pedestrian stuff being handwaved away to a falling off of skill or inability of students or whatever I think is handwaving. I think that this is technique and Teruhide had some eureka moment in coming up with something that he turned into waves. We don't see a bunch of half-assed Tomei millet that is blurry and poorly formed. He invented something and it worked and he started using it. 

 

Just my opinion about this stuff. Even if one were to buy into the theory that the second and third rate waves work is really Omori, it remains second and third rate stuff that they didn't want to sign and it should not be conflated with the best work.

 

The things I found in common with the Omori-wannabes is that these adjectives seem to be dominant: flat, smooth, small, melted-looking, regular. The Omori stuff looks chaotic, sculpted, cut, deep, irregular and features a mix of surfaces. 

 

Again, just my opinion and no offense intended against others who hold conflicting opinions.

 

Also please someone sell me this koshirae.

 

[Ford Hallam]

Just to clarify, Darcy, because based on what you've written it seems you didn't 'get' my point and completely misconstrued what I wrote. (Strawman?)

 

All I was pointing out was that the different generations of the Omori school have their own characteristics and are quite distinct from each other. That is all.

 

The reason I made that point is precisely because when we speak of a genuine Omori piece we ought also to be clear about which particular Omori master we mean. Not to do so merely leaves it all a bit meaningless.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I just viewed a nice collection of Omori Eishu in Italy.

Hi Darcy. Were you at Museo Chiossone in Genoa ? I'd like to meet you next time you visit Italy.

[lonely panet]

Well to change or wonder slightly from the past 2 posts

 

I have always liked Omori school but never been able to afford them, so at the last DTI I bought this tsuba.

 

not of the same quality but I enjoyed the work.

 

IMHO Late ko-kinko, shakudo is nice and glossy

 

regards H

[Bugyotsuji]

While we are wandering, here is something a little different again.