Urgent Identification Help Greatly Appreciated

[jungle88]

Hi there,
I hate to ask for help so soon to signing up but I hope that this is the beginning of a long journey that will result in me being able to contribute back to this awesome forum.

A katana blade is being sold at the antique auction house I frequent in two days and I was hoping somebody could help me with identifying it and translating the engraving. It would be even more help if you could give me a very rough idea to the value of this piece but I understand if that values are not talked about in this forum.

 

As a Japanese kitchen knife enthusiast and hobby knife maker I was drawn to this piece and now I am hungry to learn more about it and Nihonto. I hope that this turns out to be a nice piece that can become the beginning of a collection. 

There is no information provided but I was lucky enough to be allowed to take it out of the shirasaya for some photos. 
Here is a link to the photos and a rubbing of the engraving.

 

http://s292.photobucket.com/user/esber_88/library/katana

 

 

Thanks for any help or comment you can contribute.

Kind regards,
Jungle

[Stephen]

One request sign with your real name.David

 

Looks like a chinese copy

[John A Stuart]

Bad replica sword, sorry to say. John

[jungle88]

Great thanks for the heads up. Will steer clear of this one. 

Cheers guys

David

[ROKUJURO]

David,

to help developing 'an eye' for the real stuff, please go up to the research button and hit 'fake swords'. There is some valuable information that may help you save some bucks for a real blade. Also have a look at what is shown here at NMB, there are many nice (genuine) items for comparison and learning. In the long term, buy some good books and study before you waste your money.

And then have some real pleasure collecting!  

[Greg F]

Hello David dont feel disappointed its a good learning experience. Thats sound advice Jean has given you above.

Welcome and good luck.

 

Greg

[jungle88]

Thanks, I guess the signs were there but I was hoping for a gem in the rough (have bought a few stupidly expensive carpets at this auction house for penuts). I will start the learning process,

Thanks to everyone for your help

[jungle88]

Hi guys,
I have just received a private message from someone saying that they respectfully disagree with the statement that it is Chinese made. There have been more people say it is Chinese than say it is authentic so I tend to lean that way but I just ask if you pass an eye over these photos again just to be sure, and if possible could somebody provide me with a translation of the mei. I would hate to not bid on this (expect it to only see for a couple of hundred) and find out later it was authentic.

I have no experience identifying katana but here are my observations that may help: 
-It seemed odd that the 'damascus' pattern continued right up to the spine in one place towards the middle of the sword. from my understanding the yakiba should be even along the blade.
-The saya looked of poor craftsmanship however it may not have been original and there was a little piece of red fiber on the tang indicating that it may have had another kind of home once.
-I could barely see a hamon in the correct light and it was not very pronounced all down the blade however the blade did have some surface rust and lots of patina, i know with my knives that makes the hamon hard to see.
I was surprised by how dark the rust was on the tang and had hoped this was an indicator of its age.
-The rust colour and buildup on the tang seemed very dark and I assumed this meant the sword was old, it did not look unnatural or applied and looked like it had built up naturally.
-The sword was a little banged up with a couple of dings along the edge
-There was no information provided with the item description other than "samurai sword blade - possibly meijii" telling me the seller did not know anything about it and is reflected in the low reserve for this piece.

 

The auction is tomorrow morning so I would greatly appreciate any more information you could provide.
I hope not to offend anybody, while I believe your opinion that it is Chinese I just wish for double check to be safe.

 

This is a furniture auction so I can't imagine there being many people bidding against me if it is worth anything.

Kind regards,

David Esber

 

 

 

[Greg F]

Hello David, im far from being an expert but this sword doesnt look like a Japanese sword and I strongly advise to do some homework. I dont know the price but you can get much better replicas from China or US than this one. If you keep studying real blades you will see the difference in no time compared to this one. All the best.

 

Greg

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

This is a low end and obvious fake, and anyone who says otherwise has no idea what he is talking about.

Grey

[jungle88]

Ok great, thanks for looking over it again guys.
 

Dave

[John A Stuart]

FYI The Kanji or Hanzi 万東亰小 Nonsense!! John

[Ted Tenold]

David,

 

As John wrote, the kanji is nonsense in context of Japanese swords.    Even if it were coherent, it doesn't matter what it says if the workmanship isn't consistent, and this is a lesson that applies to actual Nihonto.

 

 

 

[Brian]

Merely based on the one picture of the habaki, I would have been 100% sure it is a fake.

Suggest you inform the auctioneers, since someone is going to be buying it as real, and will later find out what a waste of money it was.

[SAS]

I concur that this is a Chinese fake, maybe an older one (that certainly does not increase its value) and is not even a very good Chinese fake. Save your money, there are much better deals for sale on this board right now from reputable people.

[MAXBLISS888]

万東亰小 direct translation : "Ten Thousands Tokyo Small" ... has no meaning..

[Yoshimichi]

Dear David:

 

I have to concur with the other members that the sword in question is a non-Japanese, likely Chinese made, fake or replica sword most often seen and passed off on unsuspecting Ebay buyers as real "antique Japanese" swords. The workmanship is clearly of inferior quality, low grade, and of the type we often see being offered by Ebay sellers located in Hong Kong. The mekugi-ana (tang hole) appears drilled. The file marks on the tang look like they were done quickly and with a grinder or rasp, and the "rust" or "patina" on the tang appears to be chemically and/or heat created.  The wooden "shirasaya" or storage case for the blade is not a Japanese-made shirasaya and looks like something made by an amateur or someone who is trying to make something that "sorta" look like a shirasaya, but who failed miserably. The forging in the metal that looks like "damascus" is also typical of the Hong Kong peddled "antique Japanese swords." The habaki is very poorly made, and the "kanji" or inscription on the tang is definitely nonsense as confirmed by others who have commented. It would not surprise me to learn that this sword was probably purchased by someone off of Ebay at some time in the past, and they probably learned afterward that the sword was not a real Japanese sword, and they have now consigned it to this auction to unload it.

 

The concensus of the members is to clearly steer clear of this piece. You are better off saving a bit more money and buying a sword from a reputable sword collector or dealer from many of the websites linked through the NMB. Alternatively, try to attend some large regional gun or militaria shows, or even better, one of the Japanese sword shows listed on the websites linked on the NMB and get familiar with what a real Japanese sword looks like. At the same time, pick up a couple of basic sword books and begin to learn the basics that you will need to be able to identify a real versus fake Japanese sword. In my opinion, the learning process, the collectors you meet, and the journey ends up being the most rewarding aspect of Japanese sword collecting. Once you pick up the basics, you will be better prepared to spot the real thing at auctions, yard and estate sales, gun shows, or antique stores, and better able to spot a good buy or bargain when you see it. Let someone else waste their money on the sword being offered at this auction, and save yours for the real deal down the road.

 

Best regards,

Bill E. Sheehan (Yoshimichi)   

[Gordon Sanders]

Fantastic response Bill

 

That almost reads like the "Fake" Origami

In other words. It is certified and passed all of the tests of a real genuine fake