Signature translation help please

[Ted Tenold]

Hi all,

 

I know this isn't a sword fitting, but the story goes that this vase was made by a tsuba makers student or brother(?) so I'm digging for some reference. I've been able to read much of it but the sixth and seventh (kyo?) in conjunction with the subsequent eighth and ninth (masa kore) are evading me.

 

So far I have: TENPO GO NEN SHI X X MASA KORE

 

The signature is pretty rudementary in this vase, but the other one the signature is better. However the other one is signed ommiting the sixth character and the "kore" of this example. So the story has some validity from that respect.

 

Anybody have any thoughts? Once I figure this out I'd like to do the cross reference to find out any possiblity that a tsuba maker did indeed make this vase.

 

Thanks,

 

Ted

[Nobody]

That could be 天保五年師代兄政之. I do not know the proper reading with reasonable sense except "Tenpo go nen".

 

However, as my personal feeling, I do not like the writing of the Mei.

[Ted Tenold]

Thank you Moriyama-san. I agree with you that the signature is very rough and not very good.

 

My friend is a collector of late Edo, Meiji, and Taisho era sculpture. He has a good eye for workmanship, is very experienced and doesn't buy signatures, but rather focuses on the works themselves. This is one of a pair of vases that he recently purchased. He also thought the signature was very inexperienced looking. The work in the vases is very good though, so he bought them. The other signature is below. It looks a little better in execution, but still doesn't make any sense to me either.

[Nobody]

Hi Ted,

I found that 師兄 is a Chinese word meaning senior pupil, though I do not know it refers to the Mei.

I am sorry, but frankly speaking, the inscription looks like scrawls of a kindergartner to me.

 

Of course this is only my thought.

[Bungo]

Hi Ted,

I found that 師兄 is a Chinese word meaning senior pupil, though I do not know it refers to the Mei.

I am sorry, but frankly speaking, the inscription looks like scrawls of a kindergartner to me.

 

Of course this is only my thought.

 

most likely some gaijin scribbled the " mei " there to make it appeared " signed by artist "

 

milt THE ronin

[Ichi]

I can do a better job than this guy :D

[Ted Tenold]

Moriyama-san,

 

Thank you for your continued effort. There is no doubt that this signature is very ugly, and immediately cries out "poorly done gimei". So no offense is taken and there is no need to apologize for your honest opinion.

 

The work on the vases is quite good though, so I thought it best to double check here with other knowledgable folks in case I was not translating it correctly.

 

I think anyone of us could have signed better!

[Brian]

I may be wrong here, but I think that the mei was probably written on wet clay before the vases were fired, and if so...then I don't think the kanji are badly done at all. This is not as controlled as chiselling them onto hard steel, and would account for the sloppy signature.

This combined with the fact that some of these artisans might have been close to illiterate...means I don't have too much worry about the mei personally.

Of course I could be totally wrong..but it's a possibility.

Try write your name in wet (and maybe not too firm yet) clay..and see how masterful it looks :D

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

I have seen that before. Yes, signing in the wax or clay does deteriorate the form of the script. Problem is, this goes against the conventions of both sculptors, and also tsuba makers, by which both of these vases were allegedly made. I believe that a tsuba maker, working outside his normal scope, would treat good vase work either with the same care in signing, or even with better. Either artisan would carve their mei after the work was completed, if at all. Carving the mei into the waxes before the casting process assumes the work will come out as desired before finished, also a bit too presumptuous for a highly skilled artisan in my opinion.

 

All in all, it's still quite enigmatic because the vases look to have some really nice on-lay, inlay, and carving work that would indicate a good maker. If they're reproductions, the work alone doesn't reflect it.

[Bungo]

how about some pics on the vase ?

 

 

milt THE ronin

[Ted Tenold]

Yeah, I'm working on that. My friend sent me the pictures of the signatures and I could see part of the work on the side, but I had to crop the images to post them. He's going to send me some specific images and I'll post them up to see.