Shinogi Tsukuri Tanto, Original Form Or Cut Down Wakizashi ?

[Iain E]

Hi Everyone,

Have a few general questions, which I hope are not too dumb about the shape of this late edo Tanto.

On the subject of shortening blades – I’ve come across a Shinogi Tsukuri Tanto on a well-known dealer’s website and was wondering about the Hamon and the way it ends on the Ha-Machi and nakago.

 

Given it seems to be “running on”, (sorry not sure of the correct expression) coupled with the Shinogi form is this blade Machi-Okuri or suriage. Or is there no 100% rule that the hamon ended up gracefully close to the Ha-Machi  

 

But, if it has been altered in some what would that mean that the mei would also then be a later addition to the blade, did smiths or their pupils therefore mark blades they reworked, or is it just plain old gimei ?

 

The blade length is 20cm so I’m assuming there is a significant length removed it started life as a wakizashi.  

Blade length : 20 cm
Sori : 0.15 cm
Width at the hamachi : 2.30 cm
Kasane : 0.46 cm

 

Would be interested in your thoughts...

 

Many thanks

 

Iain

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lain,

This tanto is hira zukuri, not shinogi zukuri.  The difference is most obviously seen by the lack of yokote.  Almost all shinogi zukuri tanto and short wakizashi are cut down from something longer but there is no reason to suspect that the tanto in your pictures was ever anything but what it is today.

Grey

[Geraint]

Hi Iain.

 

I know that Tsuruta san has described this as shinogi zukuri but what do you think?  In the oshigata the hamon does seem to end quite suddenly but this is less clear in the photographs.   In this case we can be sure that the nakago is ubu and therefore the answer to your question about smiths resigning a blade after suriage does not enter the discussion.  On a broader note in certain cases we find that a smith who performed suriage might inscribe that fact on the nakago, something to the effect, "I Fred Blogs have shortened this katana by Joe Simkins".  I have never come across a sword where the suriage was done by the smith who made the sword in the first place.

 

As you are studying the tanto page you will see that very few of the blades, or at least the oshigata end in the rather nice neat way we might expect, even when clearly not suriage.

 

Hope that helps, I am sure others will chime in here.

 

All the best.

 

Just crossed your post Grey, did you mean to write hirazukuri?

[paulb]

Grey I am confused.

There is a clear shinogi therefore isnt this shinogi-zukuri?

I have always assumed the description was defined by the presence or lack of a shinogi not a yokote.

[Ray Singer]

I would have thought to call this one shobu-zukuri.

Best regards,
Ray

[Stephen]

same

[Geraint]

It seems that as a rule so would Tsuruta san.  http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-sokanansei-4-6-gatsu-sakujitsu-saku

 

 

Typos all round!

 

 

All the best

[Iain E]

Thanks to all for the replies, again I've learnt a lot. Nice to end the day knowing more that I did at the start.

[Kronos]

From Markus Sesko's Kantei series:

 

shôbu-zukuri (菖蒲造): Basically a shinogi-zukuri without yokote where the shinogi-ji drops off towards the mune. This rather sharp looking interpretation reminds of an iris (Japanese shôbu) leaf, thus shôbu-zukuri. A shôbu-zukuri is mostly seen on tantô and wakizashi of the Muromachi period and there are two different kinds of shôbu-zukuri: At one the shinogi meets in moroha-zukuri-manner the very tip of the sword (see top picture below) and at the other, the shinogi runs like the ko-shinogi up to the mune, just without a yokote

[Grey Doffin]

Yes; my mistake.  I meant to say Shobu.  Think 1st, then type.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

Geraint & Grey, how often do we see a hamon that so clearly extends past the machi, without wondering if it's suriage?  I also think the oshigata was poorly done.

 

Ken

 

[Geraint]

Hi Ken.

 

Absolutely right though in this case I am not so sure that the oshigata is wrong as I can't see exactly what happens to the hamon in the photographs.   I think the second part of your question captures the point, we wonder if it might be.  Then other factors come into play don't they?  With the example in question there are no other indications as far as I can tell.  

 

The example sword, assuming the oshigata is accurate, certainly seems to have a very abrupt ending to the hamon which looks odd, perhaps this is more an indication of the fashion for replicating shortened koto blades, perhaps the sign of a second rank smith but it certainly doesn't look good to my eye.  

 

If nothing else I have just spent some time looking through most of the oshigata on Aoi Art and at least it's made me think a lot more about this particular issue.

 

All the best.

[Darcy]

Study the mune, someone, at least once on these scans, and figure out what is wrong so I don't have to state it.

 

For the rest the sugata creeps out because 2.3cm wide on a 20cm blade with a hamon descending into the nakago and with the oshigata showing a physical break right where a yokote would be and a boshi that starts where a yokote would be and no yokote is telling you all "I am the top half of a broken katana." That's why it is making people scratch their heads. Add in a bit of meat where the boshi disagrees with where the ha used to be in the kissaki and suddenly it doesn't look so creepy anymore.

 

Measuring pixels, the ha-machi width of 2.3cm tapers 15% to the "yokote" which would then be 2.0cm. Pretty much exactly what it should be if it's the top half of a katana.

 

I don't know if that is what it *is* but it's why it's creeping your *eyes* out. Benson told me once, "Tanto should not have a shinogi" and that doesn't help either with this assessment. Yet, someone has it on hold. 

 

But seriously study the mune on these things. I had to de-work it to make it look normal.

 

[Darcy]

Geraint & Grey, how often do we see a hamon that so clearly extends past the machi, without wondering if it's suriage?  I also think the oshigata was poorly done.

 

Ken

 

It's a very interesting statement because he is obviously very highly technically skilled. In person these oshigata are as beautiful as one would hope.

 

The question of what to think when the oshigata and photo disagree on the finer details should be something people should meditate on.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Do you think the oshigata was created as it was to illustrate something in particular, Darcy? Yes, the rest of the oshigata looks extremely well done, but my meditation hasn't resulted in any clarification on why he ended the hamon where he did.

 

But as I look more closely, I also see a fairly-significant difference between the oshigata & the shinogi at the boshi...the ura shows it ending much higher than the photo. Am I missing something?

Ken