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Whitegryphon70 · January 2, 2016

So I finally made my first Japanese sword purchase and would like to know what you guys think of it, and your help in translating the tang and help in identifying the mon on the handle.

Thanks, Sean O.

SteveM · January 2, 2016

Hello Sean,

The inscription on the tang is

武州住下原廣重

Bushū Shimohara-ju Hiroshige

The mon is called umebachi (梅鉢) or plum bowl/pot.

http://www.yoroduya.co.jp/kamon/a/umebachi.html

Guido · January 2, 2016

Although Shimohara is a valid reading, it's usually called Shitahara.

Whitegryphon70 · January 2, 2016

What would you estimate as an age of the blade? Does the mon add to the value of the sword at all?

Thank you Sean O.

SteveM · January 2, 2016

There are quite a few Hiroshige swordsmiths. I don't know which one yours is. (I had trouble loading some of the photos. Maybe they are very high res and my computer is gagging on them?)

Regarding the mon, did you see my comment regarding the other sword you posted? Its the same thing with this sword. It is like asking if platinum staples in a wooden frame add anything to the VanGogh painting inside. As a frame, it might be nice to have gold or platinum staples. But the frame is replaceable, the painting is not.*

The mon decoration adds and detracts nothing to the value of the sword. You have an Edo period sword in WW2 mountings, and so the mountings are anachronistic for this sword. This is not unusual, as some families re-fitted their heirloom swords with military mounts. But these mounts were more-or-less mass produced, and so their value is not especially high.

*Fittings of good quality and in fine condition make the ensemble worth whatever the sword is worth plus the appraisal value of the fittings, with possible a premium for the entire ensemble, especially if it is dai/sho set with matching fittings, or if there is something unique about the fittings. A mon on WW2 mounts is nothing particularly special. But if the mounts are in mint condition they might catch the attention of the military sword buffs.

Whitegryphon70 · January 2, 2016

I thank everyone for their replies.

I am trying to find out what I can about this sword and any info is very much appreciated.

Thank you Steve for your response to both of my posts.

I am having trouble trying to figure out which Smith made it as there where many who used that name.

I asked about the Mon because from what I have read it links the blade to a specific samurai family that used that Mon, please correct me if I am wrong.

And I didn't know if that affects the value art all.

Thanks again for the replies, Sean O.

Brian · January 2, 2016

Mon were used and adopted pretty much by anyone, and by that time did not really link the person back to a particular family of any consequence.

SteveM · January 2, 2016

Yes - with few exceptions, the mon (and the owner of the sword, really) are irrelevant.

Even if the mon were from a prestigious family - say, the Tokugawa - it would still add little to the sword, I'm afraid. It would be an interesting curiosity, but that's about it. If it were a celebrated sword that had meticulous documentation and ended up being used by some distant Tokugawa ancestor in WW2, then it might have value as an historical artifact in addition to the value of the sword (maybe), but in the sword world the comment you often hear is: "buy the sword, not the story".

Even non-samurai families (merchants, for example) could have kamon.

Just to repeat, think of the furnishings as a frame. A nice frame will make a nice ensemble, but unless the frame itself was made by DaVinci, consider it replaceable.

Whitegryphon70 · January 3, 2016

Hi, could someone recommend the best books for translating mei and listing swordsmiths with their signatures. Also what are the best books in general to have for collecting Japanese blades?

Thank you, Sean O.

Nihonto Chicken · January 3, 2016

As others have indicated, the major fulcrum regarding the balance of value is the smith and the blade condition. That said, while the fittings neither add nor subtract from the value of the blade, note that better fittings often, but not always, somewhat reflect the value of the sword contained. Your gunto has three seppa fore and, I assume, aft of the tsuba, and these plus the mon indicate a higher quality of Pacific War koshirae conversion and are as such perhaps a foggy reflection of the value of the blade involved. Even if this particular Hiroshige smith is not that all that collectible, it seems that WWII gunto in nice shape are getting strong bids nowadays (on Fleabay, that is, not so much interest at the regional sword shows). In any event, enjoy your first nihonto and be content that you didn't do as many other newbies have done, that is, rolled the dice and (Chinese) crapped out. If now hooked, spend your next $500-$1000 on books, if you haven't already.

Whitegryphon70 · January 3, 2016

Thank you for the replies. And yes I am planning on investing in books now, thus my last post asking for book recommendations as there are a lot out there and I am looking for another nice condition preww2 blade. I gladly except all advice I can get either positive or negative to help me starting out in collecting this very nice blades.

Thank you, Sean O.

SteveM · January 3, 2016

Hello Again,

The FAQ section of this site has a pretty nice selection of books to consider.

Shugyosha · January 3, 2016

Hi, could someone recommend the best books for translating mei and listing swordsmiths with their signatures. Also what are the best books in general to have for collecting Japanese blades?

Thank you, Sean O.

Hi Sean,

As regards translating mei, I'd save a bit of cash there for the time being and rely on the free stuff in the Research section above: theres a link to a guide on the JSSUS website which is quite useful and Markus Sesko's Compendium gives a lot of information re kanji for mei, dates and provinces.

As regards lists of swordsmiths and signatures, Hawley's Japanese Swordsmiths (lists swordsmiths but not pictures of signatures) and Fujishiro's Nihon Toko Jiten (which has pictures of signatures) are very useful, but neither of them are cheap. Again, Markus Sesko has published a Meikan with pictures of swordsmiths signatures which would be a good starter and also Swordsmiths of Japan which is available as an e book and is roughly an equivalent of Hawleys but perhaps a little less comprehensive. Both of these books are excellent value for money and can be had in an e book version. There are usually discount codes for the publisher (Lulu Books) published on this site so you can get a discount on the hard copy.

I don't have any connection to Mr Sesko, but I am an owner of both of these books and would recommend them.

For general books on Japanese swords, my current favourite is Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nobuo Nakahara which gives lots of useful information and which I feel does so in a down to earth way. This will bring you up to speed with lots of the terminology and gives a good overview and I would combine a book of this type with the Connoiseurs Book of Japanese Swords by Kokan Nagayama which provides excellent detail on individual sword schools and gives kantei points for them.

Hope that gets you going,

John

Whitegryphon70 · January 3, 2016

Thank you John, that is very helpful, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks Sean O.

Mark · January 3, 2016

Sean

If you are looking for books check with Grey Doffin, he is well known here and a great guy to deal with. He has a good website and can help you find books if they are not listed. Check this out

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/

Stephen · January 3, 2016

get John Yumotos book THE SAMURAI SWORD and Japanese SWORD BLADES BY Alfred Dobree BOTH have good starter tables for learning Kanji and ask Grey for his flash cards.

Jean · January 3, 2016

http://www.jssus.org/nkp/nihonto_glossary.html

Whitegryphon70 · January 5, 2016

So it appears that the tang has been lengthened, where the blade and the tang meet the blade has been cut. Thus making the tang longer and the blade shorter, the blade still measures at 27 inches now though. I can not find anything about why this was done, I am assuming to fit the ww2 handle, but that would mean it originally had a shorter handle possibly a single hand handle? But I can not find any info about this was it common or rare? How does it effect the value of the blade? There is lots of info about tangs being shortened but I can not find anything about blades being cut to lengthen the tang. There is also only a single hole in the tang, and I would have thought a new hole would be drilled for a new handle especially if the tang had to be lengthened to fit it. Is there any information anyone on this site has about this being done, and the effect on the value. Or if you could point me in direction of where I could find this info myself. Any help would be appreciated.

And thanks again to all that have already helped with all of my previous questions, I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks, Sean O.

Shugyosha · January 5, 2016

Hi Sean,

This isn't that uncommon. It happens if a blade has been potentially fatally damaged near the machi but the whole sword can be saved by removing the damaged section by moving the machi up.

It also happens with koto blades that were designed to be katate uchi (for use single handed) but when this type of use fell out of fashion the tang is made longer by machi okuri in order to accomodate a longer tsuka. That seems odd on a blade of this age, but different sword schools and individual swordsmen did things their own way - a bit like the difference between pro golfers' clubs perhaps.

I'm guessing that these are the reasons: as you say, a simple change of koshirae could be done more easily by drilling another hole.

As to value, it's a bit of a moot point - there have been threads on here arguing whether or not machi okuri means that the tang is still ubu or not but I can't remember what the concensus was. I'm sure someone will chip in on this point.

Best,

John

ROKUJURO · January 6, 2016

So it appears that the tang has been lengthened, where the blade and the tang meet the blade has been cut. ...... There is lots of info about tangs being shortened but I can not find anything about blades being cut to lengthen the tang.

Sean,

is there a misunderstanding? Of course the blade was not cut and then had a longer NAKAGO welded on! Only the MACHI were moved upwards which results in a shorter NAGASA and longer NAKAGO. This does not alter the length of the whole blade!

Whitegryphon70 · January 7, 2016

I apologize for my poor description. By blade I only meant the cutting edge, not the entire length from tip to tang. You are correct, the machi were moved upwards.

I will try to be more descriptive and use proper terminology in the future.

I thank you for the reply John.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply to all my questions.

Thanks, Sean O.

Brian · January 7, 2016

Sean,

Machi okuri (moving the habaki notches up) is not at all uncommon, and on average stuff, it not an issue at all.

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