Releasing Digital Copies Of Edo Period(?) Oshigata Notebook

[kissakai]

Hi Randy

Can you please add me to your ever growing list

Very nice

 

 

Grev UK

[Darcy]

On a roll now. Rai Kunimitsu on page 60 upper left is Juyo Token session 55.

 

[Brian]

So do we think this was all at one stage a personal collection?

[Darcy]

Same page, Rai Kunitoshi tanto that's cut off is Juyo Token session 8. 

 

[Randy McCall]

Randy you can add me to your list, Thanks

 

Done Stephen

[Randy McCall]

Hi Randy

Can you please add me to your ever growing list

Very nice

 

 

Grev UK

 

Done Grev... and thanks to those who are looking this over.  Researching these items are far beyond my meager knowledge and information resources.

[Randy McCall]

So do we think this was all at one stage a personal collection?

 

I can't speak directly to the fact, Brian, but it was a suggested as a possibility (due to the manner of organization of the notebook) by an initial reviewer. 

[Darcy]

Whatever it was there were some good items there. I think I am getting into the koto meat of things.

 

Hasebe on page 61 is Juyo session 16. Three Juyo on two pages.

 

[Jean]

I am speechless Darcy, thanks for your help.

 

Now, the big unknown, why this Oshigata book? Did all these swords belong to the same person? In this case, what swords!!!

[Darcy]

OK getting a bit time consuming producing the oshigata. Aoe Tsugunao on the same page as the Hasebe (61) is Juyo Token in session 14 also Tokubetsu Juyo session 6.

 

 

The Shintogo Kunimitsu beside the Hasebe I swear I have seen somewhere as it is dated. But I may be thinking of a Shintogo Kunihiro. Can't quite make out the date, something 16 nen or something 6 nen. 

 

Rai Kunitoshi signed tachi on page 62 is Juyo Token session 18 also Tokubetsu Juyo session 3. Think it's Ko-Hoki Yasutsuna to the right of this one but I don't recognize it.

 

[Brian]

....Aoe Tsugunao on the same page as the Hasebe (61) is Juyo Token in session 14 also Tokubetsu Juyo session 6.

Found this interesting. Does that mean it was TJ at one point, and when re-submitted later it was downgraded to just Juyo?

[Randy McCall]

I am speechless Darcy, thanks for your help.

 

Now, the big unknown, why this Oshigata book? Did all these swords belong to the same person? In this case, what swords!!!

 

Jean, at this point the question may come down to (with thanks to K Morita for the translation http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/user/137-k-morita/) who is "Old Man Nakamura", the stated owner of the notebook? 

 

[Jean]

Yes Randy, but my question was rather: Did old man Nakamura possess all these swords? Was he a sword appraiser? It is time to summon Sherlock Holmes. BTW, Nakamura san was living in Edo times but 17th or 19th century? For how long the swords identified by Darcy were in the same family?

[Brian]

Nakamura Naoya. I am sure an inquiry to the NBTHK might yield a result.

[Darcy]

The Okimasa on page 87 is very interesting. It has Nagasone on one side and Okimasa on the other. The only time I saw this before was on a Juyo blade, but I remembered it as only being signed "Nagasone" and it was strange for that. So I went and checked it out again, the opposite side has a cutting test on it. 

 

I think someone had the cutting test done, then removed the Okimasa and put the cutting test on top of it. Then they could pass it off as Nagasone Kotetsu. This kind of split signature seems fairly rare though in Okimasa so there are no other examples in the Juyos but this one in this book shows he did it.

 

[Darcy]

Found this interesting. Does that mean it was TJ at one point, and when re-submitted later it was downgraded to just Juyo?

 

To get to Tokuju you need to pass Juyo first. Juyo starts at session 1 in 1961 I think and they do a couple sessions per year. When they get to session 11 they are still doing two sessions a year I think but publishing once. 

 

In 1972 (or so) they created Tokubetsu Juyo to select the best of the best out of the Juyo, so those start at session 1, and they start drawing from the already known Juyo. 

 

The presence of Tokuju is one of the reasons why Juyo starts getting weak around Juyo 24-26. I think they figure there is a true top paper now and stop treating Juyo like it represents top stuff. They passed a couple of GUNS as Juyo in 24 and 25. Not to mention the turtles and other crap. After this they get their heads straight and tighten up Juyo again.

 

Early Tokuju can only draw on Juyo that passes before its time period. In a way the early Tokuju are very strong because they are the first of their kinds so have to be really standout items. In another sense though they can be weak because they are drawing only on the pool of already-passed Juyo. A Tokuju that passes now draws on 60 sessions of Juyo, so there is a lot more for an item to compete against. However, the strongest items from the earliest sessions have already been pulled by the earlier Tokuju sessions so in a way those early sessions have been "farmed out" a bit.

[Darcy]

My page numbers may be off by one because I shredded the PDF so I could run through it in Adobe Bridge and preserve my sanity.

 

Other stuff I couldn't find that looks like it should be Juyo or higher are the Kotetsu with cutting test (I think on 78). Samonji signed tanto on 90. Nosada on 92. Yasutsugu with Tokugawa Aoi mon and Honda Tachi-aoi mon on 93 would be guaranteed Juyo. Kanemitsu on 109 but these are always dated I think and no date recorded here looks bad.

 

Honorable mention to the Inoue Kunisada on 97 which is gimei, signed Inoue Izumi no Kami Kunisada. The INOUE I think is added after, these I think always have a date and kiku mon on the opposite side. This one the Inoue looks bigger than the rest of the mei which Shinkai never did either. 

[myochin]

Dear Randy,

 

Could you please also count me in for a digital copy.

 

Many thanks.

Paul.

[Randy McCall]

Done Paul

 

Dear Randy,

 

Could you please also count me in for a digital copy.

 

Many thanks.

Paul.

 

Done Paul

[paul V]

Hi Randy,

 

Please add me to the list.

 

Paul

[Randy McCall]

Hi Randy,

 

Please add me to the list.

 

Paul

 

Done Paul

[Kronos]

Hi Randy, could you also add me to the list, great work btw and also Darcy for the extra info

[Randy McCall]

Hi Randy, could you also add me to the list, great work btw and also Darcy for the extra info

 

Done, James

[Kronos]

On page 4 left hand side: 勝盛 Katsu Mori  I believe.

 

Edit: this is the Taira Katsumori from Bungo according to the notes by the oshigata 平勝盛.

 

I'm happy to take 4 pages.

[b.hennick]

Attached please find a PDF with the information to date. It is my hope to add to this .docx as the thread continues.

Edo oshigata from Nakamura.docx

[Kronos]

Page 26 right to left (the actual nakago's are unclear) :

Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju (Katsu?)mitsu something Tadamitsu (maybe a joint work?)

Bunki san nen ni gatsu hi (1503 2nd month)
 

Left hand side is too complicated for me :/

[Darcy]

Page 26 right to left (the actual nakago's are unclear) :

 

Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju (Katsu?)mitsu something Tadamitsu (maybe a joint work?)

 

Bunki san nen ni gatsu hi (1503 2nd month)

 

Left hand side is too complicated for me :/

 

 

Katsumitsu frequently made gasaku with Tadamitsu and Yosozaemon Sukesada. The preceding generation of Katsumitsu made them with Munemitsu. This is a gasaku (joint work) example. 

[Toryu2020]

Given the hasty and random nature of some of these oshigata - it is my feeling that these are "notes" from Kantei-kai or a student of the sword who saw many fine swords in his lifetime. Polishers and others collect oshigata, so I would not be surprised if he was some craftsman of nihonto associated arts.

-t

[Markus]

I am not 100% positive but I think that the oshigata collection might has once been in the library of Prof. Mitsuya Shigematsu (三矢重松, 1872-1924) who was a linguist and scholar of ancient Japanese literature. I looked for the stamp (矢氏蔵書之章) Morita san deciphered and this stamp is mentioned in a bibliographical research paper (see link below, page 24 of PDF, page 367 of the text). I did not read through the entire thing so I don't know for sure how the paper is structured but it is possible that we are facing his stamp.

 

http://koara.lib.keio.ac.jp/xoonips/modules/xoonips/download.php/AN00106199-00000020-0345.pdf?file_id=64348

 

However, this does not tell is who the initial compiler/owner, Nakamura Naoya (中村直矢) was, as a quick look up for his name result it any usable hits.

 

FYI, picture of Mitsuya Shigematsu below.

 

[k morita]

Hi Markus,

In my guess, family name Mitsuya is Mitsuya Miyamatsu(三矢宮松) ,Miyamatsu was a scholar of swords.

Mitsuya Shigematsu was an elder brother of Mitsuya Miyamatsu.