A Sword I Am Looking At Right Now...

[Alex A]

Hi John, always remember when you buy a sword you must consider whether it will be an easy or hard sell in the future.

 

Assume it is gimei, as you are aware. Are you also aware that if it is gimei and you wish to receive an Hozen in the future, the mei must be removed, that is an added hassle.

 

Gimei big name Katana go for anything between £800 and £1600 on fleebay, price being pushed up a by the deluded.

 

Average, papered, mumei, Shinto katana, these can be an hard sell.

 

I'm guessing if it were a genuine Tadahiro katana, it would already be papered and have a fairly big price tag.

 

I guess you know all this but are looking for positives to back up your way of thinking. We all get impulsive from time to time and look for someone to give a no bull piece of advice (even when we already know the answer), done it myself recently, looking back, I'm glad I asked, sometimes we just need a no-nonsense reminder and wake up call.

 

Having said all that, if you really do like the sword, then I hope your very happy with it 

[Johnno]

Thanks for that Alex - and yes, I can't complain - I'm no ''expert'' but I am smart enough to know I have been given spot on advice and guidance here... Having said that - as you obviously realize yourself - buying a sword is not like buying anything else - there is very much (well I think anyway) an emotional component to it - these things affect us in a way that nothing else does... I'll be honest - that sword is still speaking to me - very much so I know half the people here will probably say I am certifiable and not talk to me again but I'll be honest and say I decided to go for it lol...

 

I may well kick myself later on - or I might turn out to be happier with this sword than I have ever been with any other sword I have had - only time will tell - so all I can do is say thanks to everyone for their input and their advice If I feel like I messed up later on I have nobody to blame but myself

[Jean]

Be sure to pay the price of a mumei shinto blade

[Greg F]

Hi Johno, ive been following and enjoying this thread and to be honest I thought you had your mind made up from the beginning. Good luck I hope you are glad with your decision. I also would much prefer your katana your selling but as we know all blades speak to us all differently. Here in Oz theres a saying, different strokes for different blokes which means we have different tastes. If you regret it later as long as you mention its gimei when/if you decide to resell and learn from the experience its all good. I also would like to say that ive always found John at Nihonto Australia a pleasure to deal with. All the best.

 

Greg

[Alex A]

Thanks for that Alex - and yes, I can't complain - I'm no ''expert'' but I am smart enough to know I have been given spot on advice and guidance here... Having said that - as you obviously realize yourself - buying a sword is not like buying anything else - there is very much (well I think anyway) an emotional component to it - these things affect us in a way that nothing else does... I'll be honest - that sword is still speaking to me - very much so I know half the people here will probably say I am certifiable and not talk to me again but I'll be honest and say I decided to go for it lol...

 

I may well kick myself later on - or I might turn out to be happier with this sword than I have ever been with any other sword I have had - only time will tell - so all I can do is say thanks to everyone for their input and their advice If I feel like I messed up later on I have nobody to blame but myself

For once, we have someone who knows what they want................hallelujah.

[Johnno]

Hi Greg - yes I have dealt with John before - he's one of two dealers I consider to be 100% trustworthy and whom I would always deal with - John at Nihonto Australia and the other being Kamata-san at Tokka.biz... I am not saying there are not other good guys out there - I am just saying that they are the two main people I have dealt with in say the last 10 years and yes, feel totally comfortable dealing both

 

Alex - um - I know what I want - I know I want that sword - but it doesn't mean I am sane of course - I am part Irish you know lol

 

But what can I say - the sword DOES speak to me and I have to have her I was most interested today also when a friend of mine who is far more knowledgeable on Nihonto than I am suggested that the sword might well be Bungo... Just thought I would mention that here...

 

At any rate - the sword will be on her way to me Thursday hopefully and I am hoping to have her in my hot little hands within a week of that - can't wait

 

Once again, thanks to you all for your advice and input - there is some pretty amazing knowledge and expertise on this board - I'll definitely be hanging around - and I have a feeling that I'm well and truly *back* when it comes to Nihonto also - not that I believe its possible to ever ''lose'' the bug once you've got it lol

[KarlPeterSmith]

SOMETIMES... you have to look at what your own children DO... and see what they have picked up from YOU

 

They have to get it from somewhere...

 

I'll guess the blade is 1630 by YOSHIIE (who was previously called HIROSADA and is the half-brother of 1st Gen Tadayoshi... and signed TADAHIRO [as everyone had to... as the 1st Gen was still alive].

 

Hirosada's 1st son was Kunihiro and his second was Hironori [who later became TADAKUNI - who also signed for 1st+2nd Gen 'Omi']

 

Not far fetched.

Realistic.

 

And the sword speaks for itself.

 

All notes are on the pic. 

[Johnno]

You sir are a genius - on a long customer call but back at you as soon as I get a breather... THANK YOU so much...

[Johnno]

Cool - this is the message I *thought* was private - but obviously wasn't lol - call it a ''blonde moment'' but now I am deleting it because its made me feel enough of a goose for one day

[Daniel]

Hi John

 

A couple of years ago I had a Gimei Hizen Tadakuni which coincidentally also was bought from nihonto.au Some thought it to be a Bungo Takada from the 1600's so maybe that's not a bad call afterall. Please have a look, I think there are some similarities.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/13776-hizen-tadakuni/?hl=%2Bhizen+%2Btadakuni

 

Anyhow I hope you'll enyoy your new sword. BTW hope you will like it here in Sweden.

 

Best Regards

Daniel

[Jussi Ekholm]

The most important thing is that you like the sword, I don't think anything else really matters. As you are buying it for yourself.

 

I will say that the "Hizen smith code" by KarlPeterSmith is bit controversial subject and it is a research in progress. See more here -> http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14763-tadayoshi-waki-expert-help-on-mei/page-4

 

How long are you staying in Sweden? There are people who have great nihonto knowledge in Sweden and also on Hizen swords.

 

I am not personally that fond of Hizen swords, and I don't know a thing about them. Still I'm guessing I should have around 100 Tadahiro signatures (various generations) scattered across my books & magazines. I think I could gather bunch of them up for you if you'd like. Like others before me, I would be leaning on gimei.

 

I also think John at Nihonto Australia seems like a good guy, I've only exchanged few emails with him.

[Brian]

John, best you don't jump to confusions too quickly, especially from theories the equivalent of conspiracy theories.

That's just my advice.

I don't recall anyone calling you drunk or a moron for considering the trade. You just got solid advice from a bunch of collectors. Even the dealer (who has a decent reputation) would probably advise you to buy anything without papers as though it is gimei, and if it turns out otherwise...you score.

 

Anyways, watching this thread with amusement....looking a bit like a Twin Peaks episode now.

[Alex A]

Here we go again, Ok, having had a look at the mei and comparing it to other examples, I think its fair to say there is more wrong with it than you can shake a stick at.

 

I enjoy to speculate too sometimes, but that doesn't get you an Hozen I'm afraid, unless maybe there is a special Hozen award for speculating .

 

I respect Karls efforts, but unless he gets on a plane to Tokyo and convinces and educates the NBTHK/NTHK of his theories/findings or even gets on to a shinsa panel then in my humble opinion this sword will receive no Hozen for Tadahiro.

 

 

Ps John, all the folk above (including me) took time to help you and you have kind of come across slightly insulting and ungrateful in your last statement. Oh well, I suppose we can only try to help. You will need to remember that giving advice, checking mei etc can be time consuming and a bit of a pain, its not something that I or anyone else take on likely, it can also make one look a complete plonker should one get it wrong, so think on.

[paulb]

John

Please do not mistake enthusiasm and confidence as expertise. Can I suggest you go back to basics before getting carried away with sending the sword to shinsa.

Let me start by saying I dont know what your sword is. But as a beginning ignore the signatue and look at the sword.

1. Shape will give you an indication of period

2. Hada will indicate tradition

3. Hamon school

4. Boshi smith

(this is a very rough rule of thumb not fully accurate but if you look at a sword this way you will have a clearer idea as to what you might be looking at.)

In the case of your sword if you compare it to other examples of Hizen swords of which there are numerous illustrations I would suggest the shape is not typical, it lacks the elegance you would expect to see. The hada is not the classic Konuka hada of Hizen and although in their early days they produced other forms they are far less common. I cant see detail of the hamon structure but it should have a broad nioi-guchi interspersed with ko-nie. The boshi should be a well proportioned ko-maru.

Now if your sword doesnt comply with the majority of the above it is unllikely to be a Hizen sword. "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck chances are its a duck" conversely if it does none of the above it is more likely to be something else.

Now having done all that if you conclude it is a Hizen blade you can then look at the mei to decide if it is gimei dai-mei or dai-saku all of which would be possible.

What is extremely unlikely is that a well known Hizen artisan would sign a sword made at a difftrent time in a different school and tradition. Therefore before you get carried away with theories relating to caligraphy work style or some conspiracy theory and code system please look at the sword.

Certainly dont start thinking about spending money on sending it for shinsa until you are confident in your own mind, based on a lot of study that it stands a chance of being what it claims to be.

End of soapbox lecture but please lets not get caught up in another eccentric debate about Hizen swords! And can those commenting be clear that what they are offering is opinion not a statement of fact. Part of the role of this board is to assist and educate not to confuse and mislead.

[Alex A]

Karl, are you John by any chance???

 

All those compliments...........hehe

 

Lol.

[Brian]

No..I already checked that with the tools available

[Alex A]

No..I already checked that with the tools available

 

That comes as a big surprise, similar writing style too   ...    ...   ...

[KarlPeterSmith]

[At present do not spend any money on a Shinsa. The identification of your sword should not be by democratic vote based on it's hamon... which would say Tadayoshi School full stop. God I hate that hamon. They are currently not using the correct information regarding signatories. Which is why the boat is being rocked with my research.]

 

Factual evidence will disappoint a lot of 'dealers', 'auctioneers' and 'freemasons' who think they have a 1st Gen Tadayoshi when realistically they really don't. And having a piece of paper will make your sword no greater than it really is (listen to post #41 Jussi...) 

 

Your sword spoke to you. It has a soul. A truth. It is an honest sword... with honour.

 

They all want their sword to be signed by the 1st Gen... And your sword has been signed within THE FAMILY. And we are not saying it was THE 1st Gen. Tadayoshi himself... but they a fuming that THEY missed a trick here. That bargain got away from them. 

 

ON A POSITIVE STROKE ...One THING I HATE about your sword (yes, on a positive stroke) is i really HATE the hamon  (it is boring) i.e. IT LOOKS LIKE A TADAYOSHI SCHOOL sword)... call it sugar, call it flat water, call it whatever you want ... the bit i HATE HATE HATE about it is is looks like a generic TADAYOSHI SCHOOL blade haha. I hate that hamon. I really do. I hate it because I know it is a Tadayoshi School blade LOL. My own negativity.... my pet hate is also saying YUP it's a real one... because I just hate that hamon.

 

To Sherlock Holmes (the hater)... If 60 Smiths work for 1st Tadayoshi - then you have 60 suspects when determining who made/signed the swords from the Tadayoshi School. Right? Correct. Argue with Sherlock Holmes will they? They still will.

 

The HIZEN-SMITH CODE identifies not everyone... but just enough to get to the bottom of the usual suspects and even ones that the masses do not even know are on the MAP yet! I would love to blurt out more secrets but I am sitting on my hands with parts of my CODE (swordsmiths and named assistants from Yamashiro and Osaka... that's right Hizen swords signed as such made elsewhere) that will rock most 'professional' collections.

 

I'm not even joking that I expect a Ninja to crawl over my roof within the coming months.

 

I know you'll keep and cherish your sword. I can Skype with you to tell you where your sword fits in the bigger picture. Relax... it's a good one.

 

Oooouu... when I mentioned Hirosada's children Kunihiro & Tadakuni... I invariably disappointed many who thought they had a good-one. Relax - they're good too... in fact some are GREAT! That's why they are in museums with TADAHIRO on them because the master agreed they were good enough to pass off as the master's... and signed as such. Phew.

[Stephen]

[paulb]

This appears to be going down the same path a s previous mails on this subject

can the moderators please put it out of its misery, especialy when Peter now seems to feel threatened that his radical views will result in a "Ninja on the roof"

Doesn't do a lot for the credability of the board or the contributors to extend this again.

John I am sorry your original post warranted and received some considered views many of which I think made valid points however fanatasy appears to have taken over.

regards

Paul

[Johnno]

Thanks for that Daniel...

 

MOST interesting - and YES - I can *definitely* see some similarities... BTW - going to be here long term and have sent you a couple of private messages

 

John.

 

Hi John

A couple of years ago I had a Gimei Hizen Tadakuni which coincidentally also was bought from nihonto.au Some thought it to be a Bungo Takada from the 1600's so maybe that's not a bad call afterall. Please have a look, I think there are some similarities.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/13776-hizen-tadakuni/?hl=%2Bhizen+%2Btadakuni

Anyhow I hope you'll enyoy your new sword. BTW hope you will like it here in Sweden.

Best Regards
Daniel

[Johnno]

Far out - this is way too embarrassing now - I thought I had replied to a private message there - bugger lol...

 

As you can probably tell I don't spend a lot of time posting on public forums etc lol

 

Bugger...

 

Oh well - at least I don't think I said anything to disgusting or shocking so that is a relief...

 

:)

 

Karl, are you John by any chance???

 

All those compliments...........hehe

 

Lol.

[Johnno]

Thanks Karl

 

I'll be honest - its new year's even here soon - and I still have to work a very long shift and my head is now spinning - I think I'm going to make myself another long black coffee

 

 

[At present do not spend any money on a Shinsa. The identification of your sword should not be by democratic vote based on it's hamon... which would say Tadayoshi School full stop. God I hate that hamon. They are currently not using the correct information regarding signatories. Which is why the boat is being rocked with my research.]

 

Factual evidence will disappoint a lot of 'dealers', 'auctioneers' and 'freemasons' who think they have a 1st Gen Tadayoshi when realistically they really don't. And having a piece of paper will make your sword no greater than it really is (listen to post #41 Jussi...) 

 

Your sword spoke to you. It has a soul. A truth. It is an honest sword... with honour.

 

They all want their sword to be signed by the 1st Gen... And your sword has been signed within THE FAMILY. And we are not saying it was THE 1st Gen. Tadayoshi himself... but they a fuming that THEY missed a trick here. That bargain got away from them. 

 

ON A POSITIVE STROKE ...One THING I HATE about your sword (yes, on a positive stroke) is i really HATE the hamon  (it is boring) i.e. IT LOOKS LIKE A TADAYOSHI SCHOOL sword)... call it sugar, call it flat water, call it whatever you want ... the bit i HATE HATE HATE about it is is looks like a generic TADAYOSHI SCHOOL blade haha. I hate that hamon. I really do. I hate it because I know it is a Tadayoshi School blade LOL. My own negativity.... my pet hate is also saying YUP it's a real one... because I just hate that hamon.

 

To Sherlock Holmes (the hater)... If 60 Smiths work for 1st Tadayoshi - then you have 60 suspects when determining who made/signed the swords from the Tadayoshi School. Right? Correct. Argue with Sherlock Holmes will they? They still will.

 

The HIZEN-SMITH CODE identifies not everyone... but just enough to get to the bottom of the usual suspects and even ones that the masses do not even know are on the MAP yet! I would love to blurt out more secrets but I am sitting on my hands with parts of my CODE (swordsmiths and named assistants from Yamashiro and Osaka... that's right Hizen swords signed as such made elsewhere) that will rock most 'professional' collections.

 

I'm not even joking that I expect a Ninja to crawl over my roof within the coming months.

 

I know you'll keep and cherish your sword. I can Skype with you to tell you where your sword fits in the bigger picture. Relax... it's a good one.

 

Oooouu... when I mentioned Hirosada's children Kunihiro & Tadakuni... I invariably disappointed many who thought they had a good-one. Relax - they're good too... in fact some are GREAT! That's why they are in museums with TADAHIRO on them because the master agreed they were good enough to pass off as the master's... and signed as such. Phew.

[Brian]

Paul,

 

can the moderators please put it out of its misery, especialy when Peter now seems to feel threatened that his radical views will result in a "Ninja on the roof"

I'm inclined to let it run. Purely for the entertainment value. Besides...I would like to see who gets to him first. The 'dealers', 'auctioneers'  'freemasons' or ninja.

 

Karl, did you ever decide exactly why the Tadayoshi school felt this great need for intricate codes and hidden meanings and complicated associations? I mean, they were pretty much running a factory and supplying everyone, and there was no real need for any clandestine signatures. I really don't think the Japanese authorities care one way or another. It's not like the Nihonto world phases anyone in Japan or rocks anyone's world there.

[Alex A]

Ok, so were all in agreement...Karl... I mean John (sorry )...wise not to spend any money on shinsa...    ...   ...

 

 

...code

 

Well, no less bizarre than a ninja on the roof!

[Stephen]

Maybe Brian ....but on this i side with Paul, why confuse newcomers even more than they are in the breaking in period. 

[Brian]

Trust me, there are no newcommers making head or tail of this or even trying to formulate any theories.
And if they do, despite all the other advice given here, then they really deserve a little side track. I don't want to start censoring what info is useful and what isn't.

People...use common sense! Not everyone is a winner. Not everyone gets a participation trophy. If you don't listen, then you lose money. Not going to babysit every time.
It's NY Eve.....let's all chill and relax and go into 2016 stress free.

[Wayben]

I'm a newb here and I agree with Brian.  Beyond just the entertainment value of this thread is the lesson in separating fact from opinion.  It's easy to confuse the two in most on-line forums, especially for beginners.

[Johnno]

I can honestly say that I am now more confused than I was when I started Having said that though, I am hanging out to see my new sword and spend some time getting to know her... I guess for me at least - shinsa or no shinsa - THAT is what it all comes down to... If this sword is still a ''keeper'' in a few years from now and I have enjoyed her and learned from her in the process then I guess I will consider myself a ''winner'' - if not, then I will have at least (hopefully) learned something from the experience... Wishing you all a Happy New Year for 2016

[KarlPeterSmith]

My name is Karl Peter Smith BA... I live in the UK (and I have never met JOHN or are associated with anyone called JOHN in Oz... I've never even been to Australia)

 

...and to reply to the post above by (Brian #54)... a CODE being used by the SMITHS when signing for their master... is the brainy thing to do. I would love to divulge everything before my book comes out... but... defending  the odd 'GOOD' blade isn't beyond me.

 

This currently (not know by the masses) knowledge is what my research is based on.

 

It is what I have uncovered/discovered on the blades and have NOT created from thin air.

 

I am NOT a Shinsa panel... guessing/voting using an unsigned blade and using merely opinion. Saying a sword is by a 'School' which is a pretty broad (all encompassing) guess if you ask me. And that mundane fact is not questioned? 

 

I mean... WOW. I can tell you WHO it was! Cheque is IN-THE-POST

 

As for my research....My characters are in sequence... 'unlike the dug-up pieces of a dinosaur in a museum'.... mine are all in order... just as the signatory intended. I get to see the actual work as it was made to be seen. I don't create it using a best-guess. My primary material is almost factory mint. A great reference point. Too good? 

 

I do like to stick to facts and NOT vague opinion.

 

Those 'not in the know'... keep still... you may fall-off this flat Earth.... Shhh... it's really a Sphere. No-way!? Yes-way.