Johnno Posted December 25, 2015 Report Posted December 25, 2015 Hi all, Looking seriously at trading up to just the one sword (well trading up for me anyway - not a very rich individual but I do have the Nihonto bug and have had it for a long time...) Anyway - I'd be most interested on comments on this Hizen Tadahiro katana I am looking at... Many thanks in advance, John:)
Johnno Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Posted December 25, 2015 PS Amongst other things would be interested to know if you guys would say send it straight off for shinsa or not...I am definitely not an expert on Hizen-to - this will be my first - Koto Kaga and Echizen blades used to be my thing in the past - but there is something about this sword that really speaks to me - thought I would get the opinions of those much more expert than myself...
Jean Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 John, Have a look at these blades and compare the signature and the hada: http://www.aoijapan.com/?s=Tadahiro
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Hi Jean - started doing that last night - having another look now... Yes - I am definitely seeing some variation - I am FAR from an ''expert'' - I just know what I like... But - would I be right in saying that there is an ''unspoken'' consensus already that if I submitted this sword for shinsa the mei would be considered gimei ? (and that if I was NOT so ''rusty'' and if I had not sold my copies of Nihonto Koza and Fujishiros and so on I should have probably made that call myself ?) Maybe its just me and being a newbie on the board here but I am starting to feel a bit dumb - that there is something SUPER obvious I am missing and that I still haven't gotten a handle on it I mean - I LOVE the sword - she definitely speaks to me - powerful strong long blade - not my ''ultimate sword'' of course - I'm a nut for early and long o-kissaki stuff from kamakura/nambokucho periods etc...But I am on a budget and I guess I am wanting to trade up the three remaining pieces of Nihonto I have for one sword I will basically be happy/satisfied with until I either win the lotto or get rich and can afford to *really* collect again lol John.
Jean Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 John, Papers are just papers, if this sword appeals to you, it is perfect. Focus on the blade first. Concerning mei and hada, I have a big doubt. 1
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 PS Its a dealer in Oz who has this sword - and I have dealt with him before and there is no issue there (so its not like I am trying to make trouble or anything lol) - I believe he is totally honest and only sells genuine Nihonto etc. I've actually got him trying to sell my Shinto seki school katana (Fujishiro kanteisho) in higo mounts and my two long koto tanto - and things are a bit slow right now (economy in Oz is not great) and to be honest I think its given me time to think and realize I really *don't* like the idea of being without at least ONE good blade to enjoy... I'm also one of those weirdos who likes to have ''a bit of both'' - a sword that I can appreciate and learn from but also handle - practice a little bit of basic Iai with - that is blasphemy in some quarters I know but its just me lol...
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 PPS Jean - BINGO - thanks for that... I spent a bit of time comparing last night - your links and a few others too - the sword definitely appeals to me - but I have doubts re: Hizen Tadahiro or not also - and that is where we get into a whole new area - I know some collectors totally freak out at the idea of having a ''gimei sword'' - but as I said - the sword really does appeal to me - but I can tell - even with my very limited knowledge of Hizen-to - that it doesn't look ''typically Hizen'' - whatever that is...
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Jean - this is the sort of direct comparison you were wanting me to make re: hada yes ? http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2013/13177-1.jpg
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 (I am just thinking here - the hada - in some of the shots I have of the new sword - it IS (without having handled the sword in person) more reminiscent of the more ''open'' hada I have found in later koto Kaga and Echizen blades I think? Or is this just my imagination ?)
paulb Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 John I have been wrong often before and without spending a lot of time with reference books I am even less confident, but I am concerned about the sword, or at least the authenticity of the mei. Reasons: There are a huge number of gimei Hizen Tadayoshi/Tadahiro blades around. They have always been very popular so have been copied for ever. The hada on your sword is far from what one would normally expect to see and want in a Hizen work. While Shodai Tadayoshi did work in other than Konuka hada in his early career by the time he adopted the Tadahiro name he was moving towards the fine Konuka hada which was perfected by the second. The Hiro character is attempting to be the shodai (as said working from memory so not 100% confident) SO you have an unpapered sword signed with a famous and much faked mei and with workmanship that isnt typical. Suggest the odds are stacking up against it. HOWEVER you like the sword and it speaks to you. So provided the price is not stupid and there are no other faults then you have to decide whether you like it enough to buy it, not because it might prove to be by a famous smith, just because the quality of the workmanship appeals to you. Certainly in this case you need to focus on the sword and not the mei in deciding if it represents good value and meets your criteria of improving the quality of what you have. 3
Alex A Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 PPS Jean - BINGO - thanks for that... I spent a bit of time comparing last night - your links and a few others too - the sword definitely appeals to me - but I have doubts re: Hizen Tadahiro or not also - and that is where we get into a whole new area - I know some collectors totally freak out at the idea of having a ''gimei sword'' - but as I said - the sword really does appeal to me - but I can tell - even with my very limited knowledge of Hizen-to - that it doesn't look ''typically Hizen'' - whatever that is... As long as you like the sword, and you don't pay a Tadahiro price, all is good. 1
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Thanks Paul and Alex... I think you are both making a lot of sense I am definitely getting the urge to have this sword - even if she is not what she says she is... But having said that, I am now getting mega curious as to what she actually IS lol And yes Paul - like yourself - I really wish I still had all my reference books - but the problem is I have done a bit of travelling the last few years so have had to travel light - so my books were one of the first casualties... When it comes to this sword I'm relying very much on my instincts rather than on *knowledge*...
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 PS I'm not sure if I can get all of the worthwhile pics uploaded here in one hit - but for you guys to have a look and see what you think - I might just give it a go... In terms of time period I think I would place her somewhere from 1650 to 1700 - that is just my ''gut feel'' though... (I have absolutely no concrete reasons for this...) Your thoughts guys ?
Jean Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 John, Yes this is what I was referring to concerning the hada. Paul and Alex have developped what I sum up in a line. I lilke first give hints then later gives some straight answers 1
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Thanks for that Jean So - let me ask another question then - what would be your take on most likely school/tradition the smith that made the sword came from ?
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 PS Yes - I am still very much interested in the sword - in one way maybe even more so than before because she is a bit of a mystery... Certainly from my sense of things anyway she is a shinto blade of better than average quality and I very much like the look of her - and feel myself getting a very strong urge to get her into my hands lol
Alex A Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 Hi John, is this the sword?, whats his take on the sword?, he has it in hand,so a lot easier. He lists it as an Hizen Tadahiro katana, not a katana signed Hizen Tadahiro. http://www.nihonto.com.au/html/hizen_tadahiro_katana.html
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Yes Alex - this is the sword On the consignment sword page you can see my three swords that I am hoping to move/trade up (the Shinto Seki School katana with Higo koshirae and the two koto o-tanto - the top three swords on that page basically)... I know the dealer - he's a martial artist as well (like I was) and personally my thinking is that because of the long Nagasa he might well have been thinking of using this as a sword for training for himself and then decided to move it on (just my personal guess). I've not discussed the signature with him yet - more or less at the initial negotiation stage to see what sort of deal he would be prepared to do in terms of a swap/trade for my three swords... I've changed country yet again and am trying to travel light and the idea of just having one good sword is appealing to me - and I have to admit it - I really *do* like the look of the sword - he has told me that he had the polish done and used antique mounts to make up the new koshirae for it etc. Its an awkward time of the year for communication of course - but what I might do is flick him another email to see what his take on the signature is - I'll be honest though - I know that for most of us collectors there are those who the whole ''gimei thing'' is a major issue for and there are those who simply look at the sword and if they like the sword they like the sword... In a perfect world of course every katana would be Juyo Token, dirt cheap, in fresh polish with magnificent koshirae and super long o-kissaki and kamakura or nambokucho with an 80cm nagasa (lol) but hey - I don't live in that world... I just know I have become *very* accustomed to having at least one real katana around - and without having one now (I am quite literally swordless) its a super weird feeling and I am feeling the katana need again very strongly indeed I guess its true, once you've got the bug there IS no cure... lol
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Okay - bottom line then guys (?) I should just go ahead and get the sword if I am happy with the sword? (Because right now the way I am feeling is that I *really* want this sword... ) lol And I mean - I haven't even bought myself an Xmas present yet so...
Alex A Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 Okay - bottom line then guys (?) I should just go ahead and get the sword if I am happy with the sword? (Because right now the way I am feeling is that I *really* want this sword... ) lol And I mean - I haven't even bought myself an Xmas present yet so... Your decision John, all I will say is know what you buy and buy with your your brains and not your heart. 1
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Thanks for that Alex... Yes - its a very personal thing buying a sword - whether its your first time or you're an old hand... I've studied the pictures (more than once lol) and I *do* like what I see - very much I can't say I'm doing this more with the heart than the head of course - but I think this sword does feel right for me... The curiosity thing is getting to me now though - I'd love to get a sense of who DID make this sword originally - or at least what tradition they came from (this is where the books I no longer have DO come in handy... Certainly my sense of things though is that this smith knew his craft - I *do* like the work... )
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 PS IS it only me or is the hada (in some pics more than others) much more reminiscent of the hada you would see in Koto Kaga swords from the 1500s (?)
Jean Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 Fujishima perhaps but who knows. Suguha has been done by all schools.
Kronos Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 Looks somewhat like echizen-gane to my novice eyes so I'd think maybe shimosaka, not one of the famous smiths but maybe later generation Kunikiyo around kanbun. Speaking of which Kunikiyo's work is meant to resemble Hizen-to a little. 1
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Any other ideas guys? Like you Kronos (and I am no way any ''expert'') a couple of the pics made me think of Kaga/Echizen - I find this sword *very* desirable so that means (experience tells me lol) that I am no longer able to be objective - the sword just ''speaks to me'' so I know I won't be happy until I have it in my hot little hands lol - but having said that, and assuming (99% sure anyway) that its not Hizen Tadahiro I would very much like ideas - consensus from all the knowledgeable people here - on what school/tradition it does represent... I would not bother sending for shinsa because that would only be extra money spent to be told the mei is gimei - and like a fairly wise person on here said somewhere in the last 24 hours - don't worry about the mei, worry about the sword - and if you like THE SWORD go for it... And that is pretty much where I am at right now - I *like* this sword This might sound like a really strange question (maybe) - but what do you guys think about the quality of the work? The smithing ? My feeling is that whoever actually made her was a highly competent smith indeed - to my novice eyes at least she looks like fine workmanship... (?)
Geraint Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 Hi John. Sounds to me as if you already know what you are going to do. No one here will tell you not to do it but...... A possibly gimei katana with recently assembled mounts of average quality.......? Personally I would have had a hard time letting that Echizen Seki in Higo koshirae go. Just as well we are all different. Whatever you decide I hope you really enjoy the sword you ends up with. All the best.
Brian Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 You want to trade 3 swords (including a lovely, papered and polished katana with NICE fittings and a very scarce bashin) for a gimei katana? I hope you really like that katana. The fittings on that katana of yours are better than most beginners will own, and with Fujishiro papers, I think you are going backwards. Look at that tsuba. But that's just me I guess... Don't get into the trap of changing swords just to have something new though.
AndyMcK Posted December 26, 2015 Report Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Hello, it has some resemblances to old katana I had, Kaga no kami Sadahiro. It was from 1688. Havent found my better photos on it yet but I wouldnt trade that katana to three blades of yours. Antti edited the photo in, not too shabby though. Edited December 26, 2015 by AndyMcK
Johnno Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Posted December 26, 2015 Wow - I wanted some feedback but right about now my head is spinning But seriously guys, thank you SO much for your guidance thus far... Brian - I know you are making total sense - Geraint - you too... One of you warned me about thinking with the heart instead of the head - but at this stage I guess the head is not winning lol... I guess its also because my three swords are in Australia there with the dealer anyway - and this sword is definitely having an effect on me... I suppose at the end of the day if the trade is favourable and as one of the other chaps said I ''don't pay a Tadahiro price'' then all good... If the mei is gimei that does not worry me so much - if I really love the sword - and if I go into it KNOWING that the mei is probably gimei (i.e. not assuming its genuine) - that is more a psychological thing though I guess... Yes - the mounts on my Shinto Seki School katana are lovely - especially the black urushi lacquer saya (original) - totally superb... I recognize the mounts on the new sword are of more average quality - but the blade (to me) looks long, almost flawless, great hada and suguba hamon that appeals to me - I can't see ''everything'' from the shots but I get a sense there is a good level of activity in the hamon - there is just ''something'' about this sword I really really like... (And yes - I know stuff like it being a ''long'' katana is hardly objective or the right criteria for a Nihonto collector to go by... Anyway - lets see what the deal looks like first I think. I do know that the guy himself is a decent chap and I have always had okay dealings with him in the past - so that is a good thing - and if I could (for example) do a ''straight trade'' I'll be honest - I would probably go for it at this point... Anyway - I really DO appreciate the advice so far - I'll keep thinking and looking and of course anything else that gets posted here I'll be reading too ANDY - do you think you COULD find the pictures of your old Sadahiro ? I would LOVE to have some idea of who is likely to have made this katana... I know this sounds strange - but one of the things that really attracts me to this sword is that for some reason she really reminds me of my ''first love'' - my Kaga Yukimitsu (from about 1527) that I got years ago from Kamata-san at Tokka... A wonderful sword and one I will always regret having sold too... I think I *do* have a ''thing'' for Kaga blades lol...
Ian B3HR2UH Posted December 27, 2015 Report Posted December 27, 2015 I think your head must be spinning from having drunk too much at Christmas time . Wait until you sober up and have a listen to the sound advice that you are being given . Ian Brooks 2
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