Ww2 Gunto

[MAXBLISS888]

Hi! May I know if this is the standard machine made WW2 Gunto? Is this made in the 1940s? Thanks for your kind enlightenment.

[Stephen]

wild guess Akihiro??

 

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?si=94437683&pid=r&n=0&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=%C3%B7&query=akihiro

[vajo]

For me it looks like a well forged Type 98 Gunto.

What does it mean machine made?

 

A machine made Sword was f.e. a Type 95 sword witch was pressed out of a piece of metal.

 

Yours is handforged from a swordsmith.

[MAXBLISS888]

Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

Regards,

 

Francis

[Shamsy]

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/showato.htm

 

For me it looks like a well forged Type 98 Gunto.

What does it mean machine made?

A machine made Sword was f.e. a Type 95 sword witch was pressed out of a piece of metal.

Yours is handforged from a swordsmith.

Hello Chris, you may find this helpful to read.

 

Cheers, Steve

[SteveM]

Also, Ohmura's site was (is) useful for me in understanding military swords.

http://ohmura-study.net/934.html

[vajo]

Hello Shamsey i know Ohmuras site very well.

For me is a hand forged sword not a machine made.

 

If you mean not traditionel that another point.

 

This sword is handmade, thats my point. Incase not traditionel.

[Mark58]

For me it looks like a well forged Type 98 Gunto.

What does it mean machine made?

 

A machine made Sword was f.e. a Type 95 sword witch was pressed out of a piece of metal.

 

Yours is handforged from a swordsmith.

 

The idea that type 95 blades were "pressed out" is not based on any historical evidence I have ever seen.That type 95 blades were 'machine made' is repeated by the uninformed and just proliferates the general ignorance that surrounds the manufacturing of these blades.

 

Please guide me to any source material you are aware of that unequivocally supports these claims......

[vajo]

Hello Mark,

no problem.

 

You found this for example in the Book: "Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths" (Leo and Hiroko Kapp, Yoshindo Yoshihara)

Page: 67

 

Look here, i marked it for you.

 

 

So my question again. What is machine made? I think many belive that a machine hammer in the forging process ist machine made? I think no. Type 98 gunto where made very carefully by hand. For me it's not important if the smith hammered with a steam hammer. But most of the blades where not made traditional with Tamahagene steel and the traditonal process of forging.

[Mark58]

Hello  Vajo,

                  Thank you very much for your reply and taking the trouble to post a picture of the relevant text from the book.I have read similar before,but I suspect it is supposition and unsupported by research.

 

I own four NCO shin gunto all with blades in very good condition and have just had a close look at them again.There are discernible differences between each of the three Tokyo Arsenal blades I have and these three are different in detail to the only Nagoya Arsenal example I possess.

 

The blades will not fit interchangeably in to anothers scabbard and along the flat of each blade and in the length of the bohi forging undulations and 'ripples' can be felt.It is my feeling these blades were forged, probably using power hammers from bar stock and then heated and tempered in oil.

 

The four I possess are good serviceable blades and would very well serve their purpose as an intended weapon.Who knows one day some indisputable evidence may surface putting my current conjecture to rest!  

 

  Regards,

                Mark. 

[vajo]

Hello Mark, 

don't missunderstand. The text says "The simplest blades,.."

There was six variations of Type95 gunto. I thinks the latest one where simple ones that are pressed out of metal.

But every one, from the copper hilt to the wood handled variation 2, they was made for war and had a history. And they all have a value. So enjoy your swords.

 

Best regards Chris

[MAXBLISS888]

Another maker 武久

[Mark58]

Hello Mark, 

don't missunderstand. The text says "The simplest blades,.."

There was six variations of Type95 gunto. I thinks the latest one where simple ones that are pressed out of metal.

But every one, from the copper hilt to the wood handled variation 2, they was made for war and had a history. And they all have a value. So enjoy your swords.

 

Best regards Chris

 

 

Hello Chris,

                   When the text says "the simplest blades" if you read further it goes on to describe what we know as the aluminium handled type 95.The wording also suggests uncertainty and supposition as to how these blades were made and also describes an alternate possibility, in the forging from bar stock.Though there were a number of variations of the type 95 all the blades were essentially the same.The "terminal blade" variation to quote Ohmura was the cheapest and simplest variation of the type 95 and just looks in profile to be the same shape as the earlier blades with the exception that the bohi is omitted,obviously as a time and cost saving measure.

 

As I said the text is ambiguous and the author comes across as far from certain on the subject.To me still the most likely production method of these blades was that they were forged from bar stock with power hammers and oil quenched.Grinding and polishing them would have been done by the cheapest and most efficient method as the volume being made would have dictated.

 

My above thoughts are what lead me to believe that when it is stated these blades were 'machine' made the claim is made erroneously.They were probably no more machine made than the vast majority of Showa-to blades and I bet a good many Gendai-to were made using power hammers too as they often are today in Japan. 

 

Regards,

               Mark.   

[vajo]

Hello Mark,

 

maybe you are right. I didn't know. But i think later in war all was going to end. Material, money, personal, time. And they need more and more swords.

[Mark58]

Hello Mark,

 

maybe you are right. I didn't know. But i think later in war all was going to end. Material, money, personal, time. And they need more and more swords.

 

 

Hello Chris,

                  I suspect we may never know for sure how these blades were made,but I would like all possibilities to be better considered hence my posts.

 

You are,of course right as the war was drawing to a close, in desperation, inevitably the quality of not only swords,but other aspects of the Japanese military machine declined.

 

Regards,

               Mark.   

[Kai-Gunto]

The NCO sword blade was IMO pressed out.

[Mark58]

The NCO sword blade was IMO pressed out.

Hello,

         There is no reliable evidence to support this claim and examination of type 95 blades suggests otherwise. 

 

 Mark.

[Dave R]

 Given Japan's rapid modernisation during the Meiji era I have little doubt that they imported sword and bayonet making machinery and techniques from Europe and America. Certainly their Cavalry sabres type 38 were made in a very modern style, though the blade shape was  reminiscent of traditional katana. I would suggest having a look at Solingen's factories for ideas of how these were made. The same production methods would  then be used for the NCO's type 95 and the lower end Commissioned Officers Shin Gunto. I also suspect that as the Army expanded and production capacity was strained that a lot of later blades were "Cottage Industry" produced and a lot of variation seen  in their production methods and quality.

[vajo]

Machine made is something on a wide range. It is true, all NCO swords were machine made. But there are so many things between machine made and machine made. 

 

Most of the NCO swords looks after 70 years like fresh made. When it was a poorley "press out" sword and looks shiny new after this long time, can we said thats poor quality? I think no. Its a very good weapon.

 

On other hands, the best made traditional sword takes a lot of care to work fine after 70 years.

[Johnny Barracuda]

Machine made can be confusing. I prefer the term "arsenal blade" or "non-traditionally made blade", because many different non traditional techniques were used in the arsenals: blades forged but iol-quenched, blades forged from Western steel, blades machine forged (with steam hammers), blades ground from steel bars, etc.

[Shamsy]

The original post I linked in was to ensure we were all using the same terminology from a collecting perspective. The discussion seems to have moved to a more detailed one, so I've observed for now.

 

However, Thibault has hit the nail on the head here. It's a fine line between nihonto and showato blades at times. Under the collector's use of the terms, arsenal and non traditionally made blades are showato.

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the thread so will sit down again.

[Dave R]

 I had the opportunity today to re-read Fuller and Gregory's book on Imperial Japanese swords where on page 219 they described the production of Mantetsu-to.

 "The steel was rolled into basic shaped rods (ie, shinogi, mune etc.) This was then cut into the right lengths, tapered, kisaki and nakago pounded out, tempered, polished and signed."...N.B. The curve would appear during tempering of the edge.

 This then reminded me of the workshop of a modern Western sword maker, Paul Binns, where I saw vintage/antique bar stock that had been rolled out to the cross section of a typical western sabre with fuller and wedge section edge. These he was then forging into sabres for re-enactors, and in fact I have one of them that I carry at Napoleonic events.(This particular piece is often taken for an original, so they do make quite decent swords.) 

 Dave

[MAXBLISS888]

....

[loiner1965]

 

maxbliss888 i have similiar blade which is a gunto made by kanetoshi.

it has a beautiful suguhu hamon and ko-itame grain which you can clearly see as the sword in your pic.

my blade has a seki or showa stamped nakago ( sorry not got sword in hand and my memory is poor now lol )but clearly is handmade and water quenched as comfirmed by the polisher who worked on it.

brian hit the nail on the head when he says some are hand made but not traditionally made with tamahagne unless they are star stamped etc

[vajo]

Maybe we can say full traditionell with tamahagene and traditionell.

What is when the smith uses not only tamahagene? Or he use a maschine hammer? And what is it when an ancient smith don't use tamahagene, but nails and other waste metals?

 

Could be crazy sometimes.

[loiner1965]

$1000.000 question......how do we know if a sword was made with foreign steel or tamahagne without destroying the sword.

as we know Japan was inporting foreign steel fro portugal i believe from the 1600 s

[obiwanknabbe]

Steve,

 If memory serves, most foreign steel blades were often inscribed as being made of Namban tetsu. This holds true for most older swords. When it comes ww2 period blades i suspect its not so easy to tell. 

 

Kurt k

[Shamsy]

Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths mentions that showato produced with European made railway track and steel bar stock from Sweden had patterns resembling jihad a and this could be made to look like a traditional forging. Repeated heating and quenching produced a pattern few could differentiate from a traditional sword. The author then continues to say that because of the inability to distinguish top showato and traditional blades, the stamping system was introduced, First in Gifu, then on a national level in 1940.

 

Of course it's been hotly debated if all stamps indicate showato. From chatting to Joe it seems to have been confirmed star and tan stamps are true nihonto. Thus the author may not be correct in such a blanket assessment.