New Tsuba, What Do You Think?

[general_piffle]

I really liked the design on this tsuba, the grape vines and the squirrel. Would really appreciate any views or info on it from the pictures. Thank you.

[Brian]

May be cast? Everything is the same colouring, including the punch marks. No signs of wear anywhere.

[TETSUGENDO]

Hello All,

 

The design is SQIIRREL AND GRAPES an old Chinese motif.

Joel, could you post a higher resolution picture with a bit brighter lighting?  What is the Material?  I fear Brian may be right, things do look "OFF", but I can't see clearly what is going on and would not want to rush to judgement.  

 

Steven K

[general_piffle]

Hi Brian / Steve, thanks for your replies. I don't know how to post more pictures in a reply without uploading them to say photobucket and inserting links in my post but I think it could well be a copper cast albeit an old one. If so does this make it relatively worthless? Thanks.

[general_piffle]

Here we go:

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Joel,

 

The last photo is excellent for diagnostic purposes.  Unfortunately,  your Tsuba exhibits modern casting techniques and the patination is all wrong- Sorry.  Take some time examining it in good light with magnification.....remember what you see....and you will have learned a valuable lesson.  There is so much fakery going on, one must take care.  

 

Steven K

,

[general_piffle]

Thank you Steven, I suspected as much, fortunately I only paid what was proportionate for it as a copy. I'll study it closely and use it as a learning experience before selling it on. Thanks.

[Ford Hallam]

Joel,

 

In my opinion your piece is not a cast work but hand made. It doesn't have any real age though, being a the work of a modern hobbyist.

The material does seem, to my eyes, to be shakudo ( it's commercially available in Japan ) and it appears to be properly patinated.

 

The workmanship is a little inept but the maker has attempted to use the traditional techniques of chiselling and punch work.

The design/composition is clearly a classical one so this may be an utsushi study of an older piece. In fact I have a feeling I've seen the original in my books somewhere, it's ringing bells.

It feels like a copy of Momoyama period Ko-kinko work....

The shakudo alone is probably worth about £100.

 

Merry Christmas to you all and a Happy New Year :-)

 

edit to add:

 

I knew I'd seen it somewhere :-)

 

Tokyo National Museum Collection.

p55.  Nakai Tomotsune, 18th cent.

 

[Brian]

Thanks Ford, I was really hoping you would comment. Unlike Stephen, I thought the close up showed the opposite of what I had first though. The close up did show signs of carving, but didn't want to comment until I heard from you.

Did they do all the carving and punch marks, and then add the patina? The unevenness of the seppa-dai and indications of where they had marked the design out before carving looked to me like novice work, but there is a lot of work there. Thanks for clarifying, and showing as always that you should never take any opinions here (myself especially) as literal until confirmed by the go-to guys.

[TETSUGENDO]

Ford- Please help me out here, if you would be so kind, perhaps I am hallucinating.  To my eyes there are clear signs of casting everywhere.  Yes there is hand work present, beforehand ( in the mold ) and after.  Look at the verticle walls of the raised portions of the decoration. 

 

 

Steven K

[Ford Hallam]

Steven

 

what do you see as "clear signs of casting everywhere" ? I can't show you what I'm not seeing :-) Are you familiar with the process of rubber mould making, wax injection, plaster investment and actual metal casting and post casting finishing?

 

The edges of the raised parts are exactly what I'd expect to see as a result of the design being outlined by chiselling, the ground cut down the create a lower level and then evened out by being punched and then textured.

Despite the lack of refined skill in the maker the tool marks (carving, engraving punch work) are all never the less crisp and the metal similarly exhibits the characteristics of directly worked metal, if this was a cast copy I expect to see hints of 'as cast' metal surface in the tiny crevices. And those 'as cast' areas not having been completely resurfaced would have oxides in the outer layer of the metal. Those oxides resist patination.

[Ford Hallam]

Brian,

 

happy to interject where I can :-)  . All the work would have been done before the final patina was developed.

 

I didn't want Joel to be sad about his tsuba on Christmas eve.

[TETSUGENDO]

Ford,

 

Yes, I am familiar with all of the casting techniques you have mentioned, both in theory and practice.  I have also done electrotyping and electroforming- although not casting techniques they are also means of reproduction.  I am also intimately acquainted with metal working  techniques. What I see are artifacts that , for me, are not the cause of chisel, graver, punch, or chasing tool directly working metal. BTW, I gain no pleasure from the delivery of bad news.  If we see things differently, oh well.  I am familiar with your work and certainly respect your opinion.  I respect my opinion as well.

 

Steven K

[Ford Hallam]

Steven,

 

Ford- Please help me out here, if you would be so kind, perhaps I am hallucinating.  To my eyes there are clear signs of casting everywhere.

 

 

 

I can only repeat my request "what do you see as "clear signs of casting everywhere" ? "

 

I described what I saw as evidence of direct working of the metal. All you've done is to disagree but without offering any actual reasoning.

 

 

 

Yes there is hand work present, beforehand ( in the mold ) and after.  Look at the verticle walls of the raised portions of the decoration

 

So what hand work can you see as being present on the finished tsuba then? and more interestingly, which parts of the handwork do you say was carried out before hand in the mould? I must admit that bit has me a bit confused? Are you saying the mould was somehow carved?

 

the patination is all wrong

 

 

Could you also explain what you mean by this too, please?

[general_piffle]

Very interesting debate gentlemen. Am enjoying reading as it unfolds. FWIW I studied sculpture at Chelsea School of Art to BA Hons more years ago than I care to remember. Although I do remember learning the 'lost wax' casting method, hugely enjoyable.

[TETSUGENDO]

Ford-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steven K

[Kevin Adams]

I've been following this topic with interest, but I'm afraid you've lost me with the photo just posted. Please explain what you're circling and pointing at, because it isn't obvious. What is it about this tsuba that makes you think it's cast, because you've been dodging around an actual explanation of the aspects that "exhibit modern casting techniques". I'm having a bit of trouble seeing why anyone would make a casting of this piece - do you think it's a casting of a wax model? I would think that it would be a lot easier to remove the tool marks if it were wax. Please explain your assertion more fully, vague commentary about your experience and an unsupported photo aren't accomplishing anything in that regard.

 

I agree with Ford in that the tsuba in question looks to be handmade, just by amateur hands. The close-up photo reveals a lot of uncertain chisel and punch marks, and general work that hasn't been finished with scraper or polishing stone.

 

There is so much fakery going on, one must take care.

 

To the membership in general, I'd like some confirmation as to what we're talking about when the word "fake" is being used, as well. This tsuba is a handmade copy, but the mei is absent - I see this as being made by a student or hobbyist to study the original. It doesn't make the work fake, it makes it a copy...there's nothing wrong with that. The onus is on the buyer to develop an eye for such things, it's too easy to pigeonhole this kind of work as "fake". So what do we mean by "fake"?

[Brian]

Please try to be a little less confrontational in your "Spanish Inquisition" please guys. badgering the witness is not the way to put your point forward.
We have been advised it is not cast, that is good. Sometimes calls come from "gut feel" and cannot easily be explained. It is better to explain what makes it look not fake, than to try and wring out an explanation where there isn't any more to give.

 

That said, Kevin...I would say that once a hobbyist makes something, it is usually not for the commercial market. Not until a certain level of expertise is achieved. At that point, the person usually feels confident enough to sign their work (nowdays, anyways)
Even if that amateur work is sold, the buyer knows who made it.

IMHO, once that person tries to resell it again, without giving the info that it is modern and not made by a professional, he is coming close to the point of selling a fake, not a copy.

Fake means it is passed off as antique. Not modern hobby work. We don't think this is antique hobbyist work, do we?

Maybe it was the seller before this one, or before him...but someone decided not to pass on the history of the piece, and hope people thought it was old and more that amateur work. He was the one selling a fake.
Yes, it is a real tsuba. But a fake antique. Not like I can take a cutting torch, cut out a disc, cut out a nakago ana, use Birchwood Casey Plum Brown on it, and sell it as an antique tsuba. That would be a fake...not a copy.

[Jean]

IMO, A fake is a copy which is intended to be sold as an original or which will be sold as an original. The fake notion implies a deal where a copy is not presented for what it is.

[TETSUGENDO]

Brian, "NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION".  Thanks for your comments.  Jean ditto.  In the spirit of the holidays ( and keeping posts on this site firmly on the high road ) I'll eschew responding to posts for which no answer will suffice.  Kevin, take no offence.  Happy holidays to all!

 

Steven K,

[Ford Hallam]

My apologies also. It was never my intention to create confusion here over matters of craft technique or metallurgy.

 

I should by now have realised that my own opinion (regardless of my training, education and trade experience)  is only worth what you paid for it...

[SAS]

Ford, even though your opinion is freely given, it is worth so much more to me (and I am sure many others!) Happy Holidays.