Thoughts On Ware And Engraving On A Tanto

[Iain E]

Good morning all,

 

I’m wondering if it would be possible to ask for some thoughts on the following photos.

 

I am contemplating the purchase of a Tanto to add to my very small and humble Nihonto collection. Its middle Muromachi period (So aprox 500 years old) and exhibits the Hamon and activities that I’m looking for. It is however an internet purchase (all be it from a reputable dealer in Japan) and has NBTHK Hozon papers – so at least I’m relatively at ease with the description of its age / authenticity etc.

 

The seller has highlighted the ware in the picture, which is something (with my limited knowledge) I’ve not seen in the area of the mune before. Is this kind of Ware a common occurrence in this age of sword as a result of its age and period of construction and therefore acceptable or is it something that is best avoided.

 

Out of interest how stable are grain openings in general in a blade that is not going to be re-polished - are they likely to deteriorate over the mid to short term (this is  assuming the sword is stored correctly with no wild changes in temperature and humidity ?)

 

The blade also has an engraving on each side, which is again something I’m not too familiar with, any thoughts on its quality?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

Iain

[paulb]

Ian from the images I dont think the ware is too much to worry about. In some traditions/schools, especially those who have masame or nagare within the jihada it is not uncommon to see these lines appearing. As you say it is 500 years old.It is also not in an area that is going to hit you in the eye every time you pick the sword up. The fact it has been papered suggests it is free of fatal flaws (not always the case but usually) As with most antiques storing in a stable environment is advisable and how this is best acheved depends to some extent where you live. I dont think fluctuation in normal household temperatures is likely to have any effect. But be scrupulous about wiping clean after viewing to make sure no moisture has the chance to accumulate in the opening. Regarding the horimono I am not best able to judge to me it looks competent without being spectacular. Out of interest who was the blade papered to?

[Iain E]

Hi Paul, thanks for the quick reply.

From the info from the dealer I have its dated as mid muromachi and described as UDA school, with the following notes: "Representive craftmen are Kunifusa (in O’ei era, 14~15c.), Kunimune (in Bunmei era, mid 15c.). Their style is “Yamato-den” add “Soshu-den” taste, it seems clear Ji-nie like a Masamune" - I presume this means the exact smith is unknown as there is no signature on there....

[Curran]

Ware are pretty common. As Paul said, more acceptable in some schools than other.

It boils down on how much they bother you. Tends to bother the newbies more, though I saw one recently that bucket of icewater'd all sex appeal of an otherwise lovely blade.

 

Given the construction of many Japanese swords, I think it is more likely to see them near or along the mune after they've seen a few polishes.

Last year I was looking at a beautiful Juyo Shikkake (one of the Yamato schools). 4 ware along the mune, though none anywhere else on the blade.

 

Yours I see, but it will be half under a habaki. It registers, but not much to my eyes on what otherwise looks like a nice blade in good polish.

[Pete Klein]

  Quote

 

 I saw one recently that bucket of icewater'd all sex appeal

 

ROFLMAO!!! 

 

Sort'a like chewing your own arm off the morning after, what?  LOL

[Ken-Hawaii]

Geez, Pete! 

 

Iain, the horimono looks to be well done, & I agree with Curran that it looks like a nice blade in decent polish.

 

If we knew where you live, you'd get more input on how to store a blade.  I live across the street from the Pacific Ocean, in an area where the relative humidity seldom falls below 60%, so I have to be darn careful how I store my blades.  A shirasaya is generally the first line of defense - after oiling, of course - but I also keep them in a katanadansu that was specifically made to store Nihonto.  Let us know more about your situation, & we can comment & recommend.

 

Ken

 

[Curran]

  On 11/27/2015 at 3:46 PM, Iain E said:

 

Out of interest how stable are grain openings in general in a blade that is not going to be re-polished - are they likely to deteriorate over the mid to short term (this is  assuming the sword is stored correctly with no wild changes in temperature and humidity ?)

 

The blade also has an engraving on each side, which is again something I’m not too familiar with, any thoughts on its quality?

 

 

Unless you intend to use the tanto as an ice pick, those grain openings should be insanely stable.

 

The engravings are bonji. Religious reference. Quickly:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha%E1%B9%83_script

Entire books published on them.

[Guido]

The jigane of Uda blades has a tendency to be rough and/or coarse, and visible lamination lines are more or less to be expected, especially towards the mune.

[nagamaki - Franco]

  On 11/28/2015 at 9:49 AM, Guido Schiller said:

The jigane of Uda blades has a tendency to be rough and/or coarse, and visible lamination lines are more or less to be expected, especially towards the mune.

 

Especially later Uda, Ko Uda on the other hand can be quite nice. In terms of concerns, if one has intentions of putting such a blade to polish the question will be if such flaws are likely to open up or not?

[Iain E]

Many thanks to everyone for the replies.

 

I live in the southern UK, so although we do get some odd weather I guess it’s not too extreme. The blades are all stored in a central heated house ( our yearly indoor temp ranges between of 10-30 odd degrees). I have a wakizashi that has some smaller openings than this, but that doesn’t seem to have changed much over the couple of years that I have owned it. Good to know it a fairly stable type of flaw… storage is in shirasaya and they are always oiled post viewing etc. so hopefully well protected for future generations.

 

Much as I’d like to have a small collection of close to perfection Art Swords, I’m quite comfortable with a small amount of "issues" in the ones I have, as long as they are not serious or at a risk of deterioration. It’s great that one can call on the advice of collectors round the world & I thank you all for this…

 

Below are a couple of more pictures that I have received this morning (much clearer) As suggested it is part way hidden by the habaki.  there are also some of the entire blade itself. All comments are welcome, especially if they can tie down the date of manufacture or smith a little more.

 

Many thanks again....

[Guido]

Why are you interested in buying this blade? Does it fit in your collection, does it have features you like, does it somehow "speak" to you? If so, and the price is set at a point that takes the ware into consideration, go for it.

 

If, OTOH, the ware really bothers you, it doesn't matter if others say it's minor, or common in this particular school, or that it's partially hidden under the habaki. You know it's there, and there will be a little nagging voice in the back of your head, telling you so every day.

 

A nihontō may have flaws yet retain its uniqueness and original quality, or it may suffer minor damage that severely compromises its merits. Every collector must answer to his own satisfaction to what extent the ugliness of the flaw mars the beauty or rarity of the piece. Despite all that may be said in order to clarify the factors and to fix guidelines, the ultimate decision about the acquisition of flawed nihontō is no less subjective than it would be were they undamaged.

[Iain E]

Thanks Guido, wise words and something that I've always tried to follow - . It does indeed tick all the boxes in your first paragraph and from my limited experience the price is inline with the condition. The premium for hozon papers and a purchase from a reputable dealer is a worthwhile addition.

 

I guess like so many collectors though I have an eye on the future not to spend "the kid's inheritance" badly.... Fortunately mine appreciate nihonto and historical items / Militaria in general so i know it will go to a good home and not just be flipped onto the market at the first opportunity.

[Iain E]

Hi all,

Received some more photos from the seller last night which I’ve uploaded below. The sword has a couple of kizu that I haven’t seen in the photos before – in my eyes they don’t really spoil the blade with its age, but I’m curious if someone more experienced can identify them. (Given the limitations of the photographs)

 

They are the small black dots in the photo. Is this a forging issue as a result of impurities / carbon deposit (is this termed a fukure ? - sorry but I don’t know if that is the correct word for this) or more likely to be remnants of old rust pits that haven’t fully polished out.

It would be good to learn the difference.

 

Thanks, 

 

Iain

[paulb]

First reaction is they are small rust pits that are to deep to be removed with a polish. As per the previous comments they are not a surprise in an older blade. (In fact you might start to feel suspicious if the blade didn't include such signs of ware)

[kunitaro]

A bit of off topic...
This tanto looks like a little Machiokuri.
Because of Mekugi-ana (maybe the lowest hole is the original) and Hamon doesn't started from Hamachi.
It looks the Hamachi was moved about 1sun (3cm) ?
What do you think ?
If it is Machi-okuri, then the horimono are done later. They don't fit on Ubu(original) Sugata. The horimono is done after Machiokuri.
Furthermore, there is some part of Gomabashi/Futasuji-hi that is touching with Hamon, which is done with modern high carbon steel chisel.
The horimono is attractive however, the original horimono and later horimono are completely different meaning.
I consider the nakago and those horimono more than the ware in this case.

PS: Ofcause, it all depend on the price. If it is reasonable price, the blade has no serious flaw. It is good looking 450 years old blade.

[Iain E]

thanks Paul - that matches my thoughts

 

 

 

Hi kunitaro,

 

that's an interesting observation, do the enclosed photos help on that theory at all ?

 

the only questionable ware I see from the latest pictures I now have (Beyond the comments above) is in the picture "RHS 4" below, but I think this is just a grain opening, but I'm not sure if it being in the Hamon is more of an issue - I seem to read conflicting opinions on that across the web on how serious this is on the value.

 

cost is around 240,000 yen all in for the blade with its koshirae etc, which I didn't not think originally was too bad for a Hozon papered tanto of this period from a dealer, however any thoughts on the effect of it possibly being Machi-okuri and the possible later addition of the horimono would have on the price?

 

I hadn't meant to turn this thread into a "is it good value question / should I buy it? "  but all opinions welcome as you guys have a lot more experience than me & I'm always keen to learn, preferably before pressing the button  ......

 

Iain

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lain,

If this were my decision to make I'd put my money back in my pocket and look for something else.  The ware', while not fatal, is a significant problem, and when the time comes to resell (and it will) you will have a difficult time finding a buyer.  Maybe the koshirae is special and it will carry the sale, but if the koshirae is OK but not special I think you want better.

Maybe you'll have to save a bit longer so you can spend more (maybe not; you should be able to get something nice at that price especially if you don't need koshirae).  Buy a better blade and you won't have to spend your time with the piece wishing it didn't have the flaw.

Grey

[Brian]

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