H.i.m.s. Katori Inaugeral Voyage Ephemera

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning all.,

 

Following on from a recent thread which mentioned the Battleship H.I.M.S. Katori, which was built in Barrow in Furness, U.K.:

 

Here's the Updated information, with thanks to NMB members and Yushukan Museum at Yasukuni Jinja|:

 

Z Lieutenant Commander Kozo Sato I.doc

 

Here's the link to my original thread from 2012:    

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/10581-hims-katori-officer-list/

 

Here's the Wikipedia page devoted to HIMS Katori:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Katori

[Davis]

Malcolm

Thanks for posting this very interesting information, quite a bit of it new to me.  The resources made available from members of this board are truly amazing.  I really do learn something new or interesting each time that I visit.

 

It's fortunate that these little souvenirs have survived the ravages of time as they provide  us with an insight into that period of history and the cooperation that existed between our two nations.  I know that the IJN was modelled on the Royal Navy and that Admiral Togo spent some years in Britain and served aboard British ships.  Apparently he also thought he was a reincarnation of Lord Nelson!  I've also read accounts of Royal Naval Officers serving aboard Japanese ships.

 

This image shows the reverse of the postcard I posted on the other thread.  It's not politically correct by todays standards but the words were written over a century ago and it does show a degree of regard for those picured.

 

Malcolm, thanks again, it shows whats out there - I never thought that it would be possible to put names to some of the crew.

Mick

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Mick.,

 

You may find Nishida san's site on the IJN of interest:

 

http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/index.htm

 

It's an extraordinary database, constantly being added to and is a sure way of tracing both Officers, their Ships and subsequent careers

 

Particularly useful if you have the rarest of the rare,  a Kaigunto with a surrender label.

 

In fact here's what he has on H.I.M.S. Katori (and Kashima):

 

http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/stc0116.htm

[Davis]

Hi Malcolm

I know very little about the IJN, so Nishida san's website was new to me and very useful.  I was able to pick up some titbits of information regards some photos I have.  You mention a Kaigunto with a surrender label, is it possible you can enlighten me on this?  This is probably a shot in the dark but are you referring to the sword surrendered by Captain Chiyoji Tsuneki??

 

Another rare sword was the one forged and specially presented to the Prince of Wales to commemorate his visit, aboard HMS Renown, to Japan in 1922. It came up for sale at Phillips in London many years ago and was bought by a collector on the south coast.  It went for a considerable sum and I was very surprised that it didn't remain in the Royal Collection.  Thanks again.

 

Mick

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Mick.,
No such luck, I regret that my comment regarding surrender labels on Kaigunto was general, not specific.

Though you have spiked my interest and I'm going to do some digging regarding Captain Chiyoji Tsuneki.

 

常木千代治

He does not show up on the Nishida database with that spelling or the likely variants.

However he does show in the Etajima class 44 which graduated on November 22nd 1916 

 

http://www.niehorster.org/014_japan/Etajima_Classes/etajima_044.html

It states that he was from Hyogo, but his subsequent details are blank.

 

However, I've tracked him down with a mention on the Sasebo Naval Cemetery Memorial website 

 

http://burari2161.fc2web.com/sasebokaigunboti.htm

 

Scroll down to the 12th image (Looks like a gold topped Burmese Stupa) I think it's for the Burma Naval Veterans

 

He gets a mention here:

 

第１７警備隊（メルギー）
　　　司令　海軍大佐　常木千代治　以下　１０８２名

 

And here:

 

http://www.jacar.go.jp/glossary/term/0100-0040-0170-0020-0010-0010-0010-0010-0030.html

 

Right click Translate to English on both sites will make some semblance of sense:

 

 

I remember the Phillips sale of the Prince of Wales' Sword.
If I recall, word around the campfire back then, it was gifted by HRH pre WW2, thence by descent through the family, finally turning up at Phillips.

[Davis]

Hi Malcolm

Thanks,some very useful information there.

Mick

[Daddy Cool]

Hi Mick.,

No such luck, I regret that my comment regarding surrender labels on Kaigunto was general, not specific.

 

Though you have spiked my interest and I'm going to do some digging regarding Captain Chiyoji Tsuneki.

 

常木千代治

 

He does not show up on the Nishida database with that spelling or the likely variants.

 

However he does show in the Etajima class 44 which graduated on November 22nd 1916 

 

http://www.niehorster.org/014_japan/Etajima_Classes/etajima_044.html

 

It states that he was from Hyogo, but his subsequent details are blank.

 

However, I've tracked him down with a mention on the Sasebo Naval Cemetery Memorial website 

 

http://burari2161.fc2web.com/sasebokaigunboti.htm

 

Scroll down to the 12th image (Looks like a gold topped Burmese Stupa) I think it's for the Burma Naval Veterans

 

He gets a mention here:

 

第１７警備隊（メルギー）

　　　司令　海軍大佐　常木千代治　以下　１０８２名

 

And here:

 

http://www.jacar.go.jp/glossary/term/0100-0040-0170-0020-0010-0010-0010-0010-0030.html

 

Right click Translate to English on both sites will make some semblance of sense:

 

 

Thread bump alert...

I recently acquired a photo album which contains the following picture:

 

Do you know anything further about Captain Tsuneki, or his sword?

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Captain Tsuneki's sword is illustrated on page 56 of Fuller and Gregory's Military Swords of Japan . The caption indicates that it was in the collection of the late Ron Gregory . There are further photos of the surrender on page 107.

Ian Brooks

[BenVK]

Thread bump alert...

I recently acquired a photo album which contains the following picture:

 

Do you know anything further about Captain Tsuneki, or his sword?

 

Which must mean you also acquired the sword because both it and the album were auctioned together recently.

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue-id-hanson10091/lot-c6a8c81d-02be-4c76-8e23-a6c200fc447b

[Daddy Cool]

Which must mean you also acquired the sword because both it and the album were auctioned together recently.

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue-id-hanson10091/lot-c6a8c81d-02be-4c76-8e23-a6c200fc447b

 

You don't miss a trick do you!?

 

Yeah, I won that auction - but dubious about the sword being "Captain Tsuneki's", hence why I'm asking about it.

I posted a thread about the sword here:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21188-help-with-signature-translation-ww2-sword/

I'm also looking for issue 37 of Armourer Magazine (from 2000) because it has the following article in it: "The day Captain Tsuneki surrendered his sword"

 

The book that Ian mentioned I *think* I have at my mums house, so I will have a look when I'm round this week. Unless anyone has it to hand and could take a photo of it?

[BenVK]

You don't miss a trick do you!?

 

  I was interested in bidding myself but without any photos of the blade, I didn't want to risk it. Did you attend the auction?

 

Here's the front cover of issue 37 of Armourer.

[Daddy Cool]

No i didnt - i bid blind and took a gamble, believing the history described listing (theres two or three noob errors in one go, right?!).

 

Thanks for the pic - ive seen that, which makes me even keener to read the article because im wondering if the front cover was a stock picture "a sword" as it doesnt look like mine (of course, finding the picture in the previously mentioned book should settle it).

 

This is my first sword purchase, and its been an emotional rollercoaster i guess! Excitement of the purchase, some disappointment that its not in great condition, but then some encouragement that despite all that, it does seem to be a "real" sword and 4-500 years old.

Having spoken to a buddy from a (car) forum who collects swords, and also a local dealer (who i will be meeting up with on saturday) it sounds like its been shortened at least once in its life.

Ive attached some (low quality) pictures in case you are interested.

 

 

As for the photo album, thats proving to be quite interesting as a (very) amateur genealogist and history sleuth. We spent last night identifying the cottage (in a tiny village in Devon!) that is shown in a couple of the photos early in the album. There are pictures of various ships (eg, HMS Charles Mciver) and the names of various crew, but the owner/photographer just refers to himself as "and self" - aaaarrrgh! If i can identify him, find his war records and/or speak to his family, maybe i can find out if thats him in the photo receiving the sword (though my gut feel is that he is the photographer taking a picture of SOMEONE ELSE receiving it).

 

By the way, i see your location is London - not West London by any chance? Only reason i ask is that it would be great to know some reasonably local people so that maybe i could see some good swords in person, rather than just internet pictures etc! Im in Bracknell myself.

[BenVK]

I'm near Enfield so not exactly local but if you’re passing this way, let me know and I’ll put the kettle on.

Also, the To-ken society of GB hold meetings in central London so that’s an ideal way for you to meet other sword collectors and study some blades. http://to-ken.uk/index.html

 

I don’t have a copy of the Fuller and Gregory book yet (santa is bringing it hopefully) but I think it’s unlikely to be the same sword unfortunately.

More likely, and as you already suspect, it’s A sword bought home by the soldier who took the photos but probably not THE sword.

 

Whatever the outcome, you got yourself a genuine old blade and in good condition from what I can see. It was a risky gamble bidding blind but you did really well and should be pleased!

Welcome onboard the rollercoaster!

[Daddy Cool]

Cheers!

As for the condition, not sure its *that* good - the dealer im meeting with on Saturday also saw the auction and said he "would not be interested in buying it due to the damage to the tip" (not that i had mentioned wanting to sell, and have no intention to -  at least not yet) but one of the reasons i'd like to meet up with him is to talk me through the details of the condition, what constitutes damage, what is considered acceptable for the age etc.

But yeah, otherwise its reassuring to know its real, and its something i can use to learn from.

 

The To-Ken society sounds good - perhaps something to attend when im a bit more clued-up about the subject, as i can imagine it could be quite intimidating for a noob!

[Daddy Cool]

Little update - turns out I do have "Military Swords of Japan", and amazed to see it has a photo of the handover taken from the other side of the table - ie, taken BY the photographer that is shown in the photo in MY album!

However, as expected, the sword (in the book) described as Capt Tsuneki's does not look like mine:

 

(apologies for derailing the thread slightly)

[David Burrows]

On 12/9/2016 at 12:27 PM, Daddy Cool said:

 

Thread bump alert...

I recently acquired a photo album which contains the following picture:

 

Do you know anything further about Captain Tsuneki, or his sword?

 

[David Burrows]

I would like those photographs as I have Captain Tsuneki’s sword here beside me. Please contact me. Thank you.

[David Burrows]

11 minutes ago, David Burrows said:

I would like those photographs as I have Captain Tsuneki’s sword here beside me. Please contact me. Thank you.

 

On 12/14/2016 at 9:25 PM, Daddy Cool said:

Little update - turns out I do have "Military Swords of Japan", and amazed to see it has a photo of the handover taken from the other side of the table - ie, taken BY the photographer that is shown in the photo in MY album!

However, as expected, the sword (in the book) described as Capt Tsuneki's does not look like mine:

 

(apologies for derailing the thread slightly)

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Fantastic David, please indulge us with more pictures!

[David Burrows]

Will do in the morning. Do you know anyone with more photos of the swords surrender? Sorry, I’m a new member. 

[David Burrows]

[David Burrows]

This maybe a better photo

[David Burrows]

[BANGBANGSAN]

Nice!Any photos of the sword?