My New Favourite Sword - Kyu-Gunto

[FletchSan]

Hi All,

 

I received the latest addition to my collection today and it is a Kyu-Gunto and I love it! It is complete with leather saya cover and tassel.

 

I haven't had a chance to do much research yet though it appears to be a command sabre similar to this one http://ohmura-study.net/771.html

 

There doesn't seem to be much information on the web about the Kyu-Gunto other than it being also referred to as a Japanese-Russo sword as a reference to that conflict and it being in use from around 1883. Does anyone have any good reference sites I could look at that may help date the style of fittings at least?

 

I'll post some more pics once I take it apart and have a closer look at the blade.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[lonely panet]

Hi Ben, congrats on the new blade.

 

its whats referred to as a COMPANY GRADE Kyu gunto, compay meaning the lowest out of the three ranked versions.

company, field and general grade.

 

what Omura refers to as "Command" sabre is a generals grade dress sword, yours is a weapon. the ball tassel is called a 1912 german tassel. most of the early Japanese military swords were styled in European manner as the early Japanese military fashioned themselves on the prussion/german army because they were winning everything at that time.

 

keep up the good work as the military stuff tends to be over looked, or looked down apon as inferior compared to "true samurai sword"

[FletchSan]

Thanks Hamish, appreciate the response. Ironically, I think it is actually a "true samurai sword"

 

Would officers have ordered the koshirae to custom fit their own swords as mine seems to have a longer Tsuka than normal. There are 19 sections in the ray skin and other examples I've seen have no more than 16. There are also a number of seppa.

 

The nakago indicates that this sword has some history with 5 mekugi-ana. If only swords could talk eh !

 

The dimensions of the sword are;

 

89cm - total length

69cm - blade

2.4cm - sori

[mauser99]

I have seen a few of these posted here and there. For what its worth I would consider this a true combat sword.  I think these would be overlooked as a dress sword .  The late 1800's was a big change in Japan as we know.   The European influence is clearly noted in all of Japans military.  This one clearly showing a mix of east and west.    I wouldn't hesitate buying this example in a New York minute.   Congrats.  Cant imagine having a leather combat cover in tact is a common thing ? Most ww2 covers barely survive. 

 

Question: Japan was noted as an Allie during WW! but,  what was their role ???  I have never heard or seen any mention of Japan's contribution ?  But, they are listed on the back of the U.S.  WW1 victory metal.    Just curious.  

[AndyMcK]

Interesting blade! Does look like a good find.

 

And a small answer to that question on the role of Japan in WW1:

 

If I remember my history classes correctly, Japanese involvement was in the Pacific area and mainland China. In the Pacific they drove off, blockaded and captured both german and austro-hungarian vessels and took control of several islands that were controlled by Germany. One that will be later on remembered well is Marshall islands.

So basically a cordoning effect in the Pacific area and of course they were able to use that as an excuse to spread Japanese influence in the area.

 

Antti

[SwordGuyJoe]

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1899-1913/Japanese-relations

[Davis]

I hope that I'm not straying too far off topic but regarding the Japanese as our allies during WW1.......Some Japanese Officers did serve with British Forces in France and the middle east.  Mainly as Staff Officers/Observers.  At the end of hostilities some Japanese even presented their swords to their British counterparts.  This postcard depicts Japanese navy personnel in England.  The Katori was I think built at Barrow and later brought the future Japanese Emperor to England some years later.

 

[FletchSan]

Were there variations of the company sabres to help work out dating the fittings or were they pretty much identical since the 1880s?

 

In respect to the blade - given it seems quite old (will post more pics of it tonight), does the topic need to be moved or okay to stay in this forum?

 

I want to discuss the fittings & blade.... or does it warrant a separate thread for the blade?

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[lonely panet]

if I think I understand your question

 

the company grade Kyu gunto normally came in two version, one and two hand style.

 

but due to the cottage industry type of manufacture, they are almost all simular in design but differ in the type of factory they were made or by the craftsman who finished them. some will have up to 6 seppa, and others will just 2. I have one that the blade was made the same time the fittings were but has 6 very well made seppa. no real function, probably just looked nicer with more.

 

dating Kyu gunto mounts in easy between 1883 and 1934, hahahahaha after that is probably impossible. maybe if yours has a rare manufactur stamp??

[FletchSan]

Thanks Hamish,

 

I think mine must have been custom made as there are few things unique about it.

The hand guard is a different shape with a bend that others don't have with it being larger at the base, there are also 7 seppa and it has more sections (19) in the grip. I'll look more closely and see if I can see any stamps.

 

Here's a few more pics of the blade. So hard to get decent pics ...

 

Ben

 

 

[cisco-san]

Hi, I am not sure, but Mei seems to be Bishū Osafune Kagemitsu (備州長船住景光).

 

edit:typo

[lonely panet]

sorry I miss read your question.

 

the koshire was made just to fit your blade (spos you could call it custom made)

but all swords start like this. 1st the sword then all fittings made to fit that sword, almost like a production line. that's why you have those small notches, its to help Id which saya, tsuka, etc goes with what sword

[FletchSan]

Thanks Klaus. That second last character is really hard to read. I'm not sure if it's Kagemitsu, Kanemitsu or Tadamitsu.

 

Hamish - are you referring to the notches on the nagako? I thought I read somewhere that was a marking by the smiths during the forging process in respect to measurements of the blade?

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Davis,

The Katori was indeed built in the United Kingdom, somewhere in my archive, I have a Ship Builders' Menu Card signed in both Kanji and Romaji by the Japanese Naval Officers on the occasion of the formal handover after Sea Trials.

I did some research with the help of the Yushukan at Yasukuni Jinja and discovered that many of them went on to reach various grades of Admiral status in the run up to WW2.

If I can find it, I'll post some images as a separate thread as it is quite an interesting piece of Military ephemera.

[Kai-Gunto]

Good morning Davis,

The Katori was indeed built in the United Kingdom, somewhere in my archive, I have a Ship Builders' Menu Card signed in both Kanji and Romaji by the Japanese Naval Officers on the occasion of the formal handover after Sea Trials.

I did some research with the help of the Yushukan at Yasukuni Jinja and discovered that many of them went on to reach various grades of Admiral status in the run up to WW2.

If I can find it, I'll post some images as a separate thread as it is quite an interesting piece of Military ephemera.

Wrong thread!

[Brian]

Wrong thread!

 

Nope...see post #7 above

[FletchSan]

Had some help in the Translation forum - definately Tadamitsu.

 

What are the thoughts on the sword overall? Does it look like it could be a late Muromachi period Tadamitsu? If so that would make it around 500 years old which is pretty amazing.

 

Compared with the shape of a muromachi period blade, it is very similar..

[Kai-Gunto]

Nope...see post #7 above

I mixed up some threads sorry..early morning.

[Stephen]

I see no reason to think its not 4-500 years old, but i have constant distractions here and have not fallowed the entire thread.