Tsuba Translation

[RobertM]

Hi all, would this read kofu ju Tomoyasu or efu ju?

 

Many thanks

 

Rob M

[docliss]

KOFU JU TOMOYASU (H 10165.0).  Edo, ca 1800.  Round, iron flat plate tsuba with large, central diamond shape within the rim, signed: Kofū jū Tomoyasu.

SCE. R.E.Haynes' collection, 1984.

 

John L.

 

[Curran]

Belonged to Craig Harris, then me, a long time ago.

Very nice clean tosho tsuba. One of those little gems.

[RobertM]

The reason that i ask is that the papers worksheet was corrected from efu..

[Curran]

I forgot I papered that one.

I think I sold it to Benson, who insisted it was Kofu. The change on the paperwork is his, or after I owned it.

[RobertM]

Thanks for the info, I bought it from bob a few years ago. So does the paper say efu?

[SteveM]

江府 is pronounced Kōfu

 

In the Japanese papers it would only appear as 江府. 

Translating this into English as Efu would be a common mistake, particularly for a novice. I wouldn't freak out about it. 

[RobertM]

Thanks Steve

[Ed]

Kofu vs. Efu.

 

It has always been my understanding that either pronunciation was acceptable.  I seem to remember a discussion here, some time back, with the rationale behind the use of Efu and that it was also correct ??  I can't seem to find it, ???  Perhaps someone remembers and/or saved that information.

 

I found several references in old posts, but not an explanation:

Chris B. wrote: Efu ju Akao Yoshitsugu 江府 住 赤尾 吉次 

Curran wrote: Efu = Edo = former name of Tokyo

                      Ju= Of (or) In , referring to a place.

Guido wrote: 府 = prefecture, in this case "E(do) prefecture". 住 = residence; however, since sword and fittings inscriptions are usually done in kambun, there's an unwritten no when read. IOW: Efu no jū Akao Yoshitsugu = Akao Yoshitsugu, resident of Edo prefecture. 

 

Here is an example using "Efu", fairly certain Tsuruta san is not a novice speaker.

http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-efu-ju-akao-yoshitsugu

 

Here is what a couple of dealers told me:

From AOI:

In Japan, we say sometime Efu and Kofu, both right.

But most of the people say Efu.

Efu is popular.

Kind regards.

Kazushige Tsuruta

 

From Ginza Choshuya

Dear Ed san

I am happy to hear from you Ed san.

It is really difficult question but we call it Koufu or Efu.

The correct pronunciation is Koufu, but we call it Efu too as a custom.

Thank you

Best

Tomoriki Imazu

[SteveM]

On matters of swords and tōsōgu, I wouldn't presume to know more than Tsuruta-sensei, but in matters of translation, I don't think he's a very cunning linguist. 

 

http://www.weblio.jp/content/%E6%B1%9F%E5%BA%9C

 

As a matter of fact, in the prefecture of Tottori there still exists a city called 江府 (Kōfu). 

 

The reason many Japanese are able to mispronounce this with such confidence is because they associate the kanji 江 with 江戸 Edo, and they assume the E reading carries across to compound words like 江府 or 江都. 

[Ed]

Hi Steve,

Your explanation makes sense.  

 

You seem to know a good deal regarding the Japanese language which is a great asset to have here.   Please do not be offended, but I am curious to your background.  Can you tell us a little about it.  As I don't know you, I would feel more comfortable accepting your explanations if I knew a bit more about you.

 

Thank you,

Ed

[MauroP]

As far as I know there are at least three places named Kōfu (江府) in Musashi, Kai and Hōki provinces. But for signatures on tsuba it should be intended Edo, so Efu is a legitimate pronunciation of 江府.

Bye, Mauro

[ROKUJURO]

.......Very nice clean tosho tsuba.

Do you really think TOSHO?

[SteveM]

In addition to the Sanseido entry for Kōfu there is also the Edo castle blueprints 江府御天守図 (Kōfu gotenshu no zu), as well as the Edo Chorography 江府名勝志 (Kō/Gōfu meishō-shi). This reading is consistent with the present-day 江東区 (Kōtō-ku), not to mention consistent with Japanese lexicology. Note it is not uncommon for Japanese people to mispronounce 江東区 as Etō-ku.

 

http://tinyurl.com/pm5v44u

http://tinyurl.com/nn2kf33

 

The association of 江 with the pronunciation "e" is so strong that to pronounce it any other way is almost counter-intuitive, hence Ginza Choshuya's kind answer to Ed. I agree completely with them. The right answer is Kōfu, but many people would naturally say Efu - and they would be completely understood. It doesn't mean they would be right.

 

Ed - I have lived in Japan since the late 80s, the bubble years. Good times. I passed JLPT 1 (Japanese language proficiency level 1) in the early 90s. I obtained my translator's certificate shortly after getting the JLPT1. I now work in Tokyo in an industry which has absolutely nothing to do with translating (or swords, for that matter), but I love the challenge of a puzzle like Kōfu vs. Efu. By the way, JPLT1 is a very low bar (as is the translator's certificate) so don't consider that any kind of an appeal to authority. As a form of authority, it is only slightly higher than "I asked my friend who is Japanese, and he said...". It is not at all uncommon for foreigners with JLPT1 to be very poor speakers of Japanese. Likewise, I know of people in the translation business who are diabolically bad translators. Therefore, I do what I can to continue learning Japanese. It is a lifelong work-in-progress. Nowadays, the puzzles are getting so tough, I'm wrong nearly as many times as I am right. But I do continue to plug away.   

[Curran]

Do you really think TOSHO?

 

Having owned this one, yes- I think tosho.

 

It is an opinion based more on the iron of the tsuba, not some shape or form criteria.

The tsuba I've had longest in my collection was made by a samurai who retired to making arrowheads in early edo. He also made some tea ceremony simple tsuba. This Tomoyasu: very similar fell and appeal.

As distinct a feeling as it has in hand, it is a late Edo tosho tsuba to me, regardless of whether or not Tomoyasu ever made a sword. You may interpret it differently.

 

I liked this one very much as an odd gem. Smooth, clean, simple, solid.