Please Help With Mei/authentication

[Caligula]

I purchased this blade for 200$ at an antique fair. The seller is a well known person at these events, and claimed to have bought it from a marine from WWII. I have been around antiques for most of life, and the forge lines made it appear to be made by hand and generally authentic. Later, as I read more about traditional sword making, I discovered the mei on the tang. I was able to translate the first two characters as Tokyo. The third as maybe kore, but I don't speak a word of Japanese. Hopefully the pictures below will provide enough information. 

 

The hamon is incredibly slight and only visible at a certain angle, which made me start to question if the blade is truly Japanese. It has all the imperial dressings of WWII (in the hilt etc). Secondly I read about acid etching and have been fearing my great prize isn't so great. And if it is acid etched and thus fake, why the machine stamped piece where the blade meets the hilt; seems redundant. 

 

Anyways, I would like to know either way, and what the tang/mei translates to. 

 

Thanks for any time and effort spent helping me with this.

 

-Phil

[Mark]

in my opinion this is a Chinese fake. Please see the link above that gives examples

[ROKUJURO]

The 'well known person' at the antique fairs is probably a good seller but not an expert in NIHONTO. He may have bought this in good faith himself (an assumption to his favours), but everything including the MEI looks like crude non-Japanese work. In my opinion $ 20.-- would have been too much for this.

If you are interested in true Japanese swords, why not invest some money in books with good pictures so you can learn what a KATANA looks like?  

[Caligula]

There is more than 20$ of fraudulent work and materials in this item Jean. Way to add salt to the wound.

[Jean]

Phil,

 

Chinese fake as stated. You will never find such wootz/damas on a Japanese katana. Here is a link which will give you an idea of what a Katana looks like.

 

http://www.aoijapan.com

 

Won't charge any fees for the 5 seconds passed on the pictures.

 

Question: why do you come to NMB after buying and not before?

 

The story told by the seller about how he got it ranks first in the Bu...t stories, together with the one where "GrandPa got it from a Japanese soldier during WWII" or a "new found in Grandpa attic."

[Caligula]

I guess it is possible the seller lied, but my Grandfather brought back a sword after fighting in the Philippines that is still in my Grandmother's house to this day. So I wouldn't over presume on that front. Maine is a friendly state and my family knows the seller quite well, it was more likely sold to him as authentic; and being an older Mainer, he never bothered to put in the research I did. And in response to your question, obviously I didn't go to the fair knowing I would buy this item, thus I looked for a forum with experienced moderators/members to discover the truth. 

 

-Phil

[Brian]

I think Jean's statement there is more lament rather than criticism

In other words, we wish people would be able to come here before buying, as it is sad to see them coming here after purchasing a fake. Wishful thinking, as we all know that isn't always possible. But don't take it as harsh critique

Yes..it's a fake. Perhaps the seller will take it back. And Jean C....you can't buy a cheap pocket knife for $20. Even as a wallhanger, a modern repro sword has some value to people.

[Caligula]

I am guessing this is a shot in the dark. But in an attempt to recover my wounded pride over this fake, I wanted to post my other blade. I am just curious about any possible information including, type of steel used, date of usage, any special forging method, etc. I read that the Saracen soldiers would take crusader swords, and began modeling after/customizing these weapons themselves. 

 

Thank you all for taking the time to help answer my questions, especially regarding the Chinese fake. 

 

-Phil

[Caligula]

I appreciate the positive intent of your post Brian. I of course wish I had known about this site prior to purchase as well, but at least I learned about the spirit and craftsmanship that goes into making a traditional nihonto. If I ever own a real one, I will appreciate it that much more. 

 

My Grandfather was in the front lines in the Philippines, so unless a merchant smuggled himself on the islands to sell Marines fake swords in the midst of combat, his sword could be something special. I hope I have the opportunity to post that one here someday as well. 

 

Thanks Again Brian,

-Phil

[Geraint]

Hi Phil.

 

With regard to your second sword it's a Sudanese kaskara, any search engine will show you quite a lot about them.  As you say rumored to be modeled on Crusader swords but...........

 

At least this one's not Chinese.

 

All the best

[Caligula]

Thanks Geraint, appreciate the information and humor lol. Just found out from my mom that the sword my Grandfather brought back from Philippines has a family inscription in the mei; but apparently if even mentioned to my Grandma she would throw it away. Sadly age takes its toll, and we can't allow something like that to end up in a landfill. With the right approach I may be lucky enough to have it passed on to me at some point; at that time someone here may translate it and hopefully reignite my passion for artistic weaponry that this fake has presently robbed me of.

 

Thanks again,

Phil 

[Jean]

Post it Phil, we will be glad to give an opinion.

 

You cannot imagine how many times we are contacted by people asking advices after buying Chinese fakes and the stories that go with them. Just use the search button using the key word "Chinese fake" and you'll be edified. That's frustrating and I shall say all the more from someone like you who has been in antiques for most of his life.

 

When you are not a specialist, you can be tricked easily, I have been in the past but not in Nihonto field.

 

People are often tricked because the item is sold at a ridiculous price. You know the rules, having been in the Antiques environment for years if not decades.

[Caligula]

I appreciate the encouragement Jean, truly. I have been brought to antique fairs since I was a kid, but my Dad's the real expert, a Museum Director, which makes the deceptive blade a bit more brutal. Thankfully Geraint was able to ID my other sword as a Sudanese Kaskara. 

 

I can't imagine how many people you all have had to break this type of news to, but I thank you for the truth. Most people in our hobby line get fooled at some stage, better it happened now so I can be more perceptive in the future. 

 

Are there any other fake swords/weapons that are so commonly represented as authentic?

 

-Phil F

[Stephen]

Not just swords, tosogu as well. 

 

Stay tuned

 

 

Signed Man on  Mission  AKA M.O.M.

[Jean]

Phil

 

If you are interested in Japanese swords, feel free to ask any question.

 

I have been shown once a blade by a member in Paris asking if it was real or fake. Despite 35 years of collecting, It took me 3 minutes to say fake. This one was very very good. So beware there are very good fakes around.

[ROKUJURO]

  On 11/3/2015 at 4:50 PM, Brian said:

......And Jean C....you can't buy a cheap pocket knife for $20. Even as a wallhanger, a modern repro sword has some value to people.

Brian,

 

if in fact you are interested in NIHONTO, but you happen to buy a cheap fake, which was only made to deceive, I feel that you loose all the money as you don't even have a wallhanger. Knowing what you have then, you cannot be happy about it, and you don't want to display it. And in most of the cases, you cannot resell it at the same price.

 

These copies may have indeed a (low) value as decorative item for the non-critical buyer, but purchased bona fide as Japanese weapon, it is a complete loss. Just my actual thoughts after having made the same mistakes in the beginning of my collecting career some 40 years ago.....   

[Caligula]

Roku I understand that feeling since I am at the forefront of this particular deception. Hopefully in 40 some years I will be at your stage of collection expertise, looking back on this incident. We will see if the buy was a total loss, I am going to have a few words with the seller. He will likely offer some/if not all of my money back, so I don't cause a huge scene at his booth; which is tempting. In the meantime it will be a nice reminder, plus now I have a blade I can practice with. 

 

-Phil

[Jamie]

Phil,

 

We've all made mistakes when beginning collecting.

If you're interested in nihonto then maybe buy a couple books and study the faq here about fakes. You might consider buying either from a dealer or someone here. Many good swords get sold here at very reasonable prices.

You might also look at some dealer sites from links here too to get some ideas of prices. Don't let a mistake hold you back though. We all made one starting out. You learned from it. In this pursuit even learning costs something. So take it in stride man. When you do buy your first authentic nihonto I'd suggest buying one in good polish. Not a fixer upper. Polish is expensive and can be risky. Anyway I hope this helps you. These swords are very interesting. Try not to get discouraged by this experience.

[Jean]

Phil,

 

Some rambling thoughts for newbies:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12646-advices-for-newbies-buyers-rules-of-thumb/