Use Of Pine For Tsuka

[Gadge]

Just a quick question. Hoping someone can help.

I'm making a tsuka and have some Australian Hoop Pine which is very much like Hinoki. I'm wondering if there is any specific reason why Pine does not seem to be used for tsuka. As this is my first tsuka, I used the Pine as as practice but it turned out so well I'd like to use it.

 

Garry

 

[SAS]

I am not an expert on Australian woods; however, I know that many aussy trees are named for species left behind, but the newly named woods are not in the same species, i.e. silky oak is not an oak. If your wood is like honoki and not like pine, it may be worth a try. Non-acidic, non-resinous wood is best; some woods promote rusting, so a test piece might be in order before you stick your Masamune in there

[Gadge]

Thanks for your reply Steve. You are quite right about the Aussie timbers. Europeans often named them after timbers they knew from home because of their qualities or appearance when in fact were completely difference species. Hoop is a beautiful clear pine and is like Hinoki in appearance and texture. I though pine may not have been used because of it's physical properties however didn't think of the possible rust problem. I'll check that out.

 

Regards,

Garry

[SAS]

One other thing; some glues emit gases long after curing that are corrosive; Tite Bond II is an example. Plain old white glue is a better choice.

[tony edmunds]

I'd suggest you source some real hinoki from Namikawa, not expensive when you consider the amount of work required to make a decent Tsuka core. Also you can order the same and ito at the same time!

Even if the alternative you select is suitable and works well you have no way of knowing how well it is seasoned i.e. air or kiln dried,

[Alan Morton]

Hi Garry,

if you contact John Grasso .I don' think Pine is a good Idea when you carve the inside and outside

it gets pretty thin and breaks so easily.

Contact Nihonto Australia  

I' m pretty sure he has handles

Alan

not sure what happened here!!!

[Jim P]

Hi Garry, Why not get Cameron to make you one his work is excellent and you will know  it s done properly    http://jigokustudios.com.au/about/

 

[John A Stuart]

I am not sure the effects of pine would be on steel. Pine resin is used, for example, on kogatana for setting the kodzuka firmly with no rust problems. A general rule was, no resinous woods or high tannin species, though. John

[Ted Tenold]

Also, fyi;  HInoki is different than HOnoki.  Hinoki is a species of Cypress.  HOnoki is a species of Magnolia.  So be careful which term you use if asking a Japanese wood supplier.  Japanese have selected specific types of wood for specific applications.  I have not seen any species of pine used in tsuka foundations, though I have rarely seen a couple of other deciduous species.  Honoki is used in saya and shirasaya for reasons of steel friendliness as well as lacquer friendliness as it is used as the foundations for lacquer wares also.

 

Outside of Japan I have seen species of Poplar, Balsa, and Basswood used, all of which are very very soft.  Bass is so soft it might dent if you just scowl at it.  So compression with these could be a problem resulting in looseness and/or rattling developing.  All are also more sensitive to environmental humidity changes than magnolia.   Mike Virgadamo in Pasadena, California uses Alder which is a pretty fair substitute for Honoki, but not a perfect equivalent.  It has a reddish/orangish brown color, but carves well, is fairly stable, and sword friendly.  I have had many shirasaya and bukezaya made by him for swords and never had a problem with this wood.

[SAS]

Had a look at  the specifications for Australian Hoop Pine and it seems it has a wide variety of uses, some of which involve structural penetration by steel members. Subsequently, it seems the users in these applications were not concerned about corrosion due to the wood. However, this does not mean that it is suitable for our sword related purposes, just that it might be worth experimenting with, if that is all you are able to get. In the USA, basswood, alder, as mentioned, as well as poplar, seem to work well. I have also used rock maple successfully.

[Gadge]

Ted - I noticed the two spellings after posting, which cleared up my confusion. Hinoki is what I'm familiar with and is a type of cypress whereas Honoki is Magnolia and used for Tsukas etc. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

Alan - I have send an email to Nihonto Australia. Thanks.

 

Jim - Thanks for Camerons contact. I really want to make the tsuka myself as the sword is virtually worthless and only good for practice.

 

John, Steve - Hoop Pine is recommended by museums because it's not acidic so would be good in that respect. Probably a bit brittle though.The only know alternative I would have access to is poplar as we have plantations here. With a bit or research and experimentation there would be good alternative Australian timbers but I don't know of any at present. I have a piece of Coach Wood which I think would be good but again I don't know for sure.

 

Garry

[Caleb Mok]

I've tried pine, didn't like it for too soft.  I spend all that time getting the fit and snug with the habaki perfect...only for it to loosen so quickly.  And then there's susceptibility to warp.  Granted, katana-sized magnolia from Namikawa heibei is often twisted and requires winding sticks to correct etc...but if even fairly straight grained stuff that i'd presume be air dried for longer periods than other, more regular (?) stuff gets twisted, how much more the other stuff.  Per usual, their katana-sized stuff is "out of stock" and i don't know how easy it is to get some despite the fact anymore...haven't made an order for years.

 

My main concern is your saya-nomi though.  I actually bought those outrageous $150 USD saya-nomi's from Japanwoodworker.com.  Aside from the minor but very obvious detail that the steel was clearly not hardened that hard, I think they were 14" long?  Not long enough IMHO... made some 18" myself and they were much better.  You might have to experiment with sharpening angle too...30 degrees is ideal and what IMHO you'd use if you're really good...but for yours humbly i find that 35 degrees forces you to exert more force and its ability to automatically dig itself into the wood a bit better, something that ~may~ be beneficial.

[jason_mazzy]

the hoop pine does not seem like a true pine species by foilage. more like a cypress or false cypress. Seems like a nice wood.

[tony edmunds]

The original typo was mine, HONOKI not Hinoki for Tsuka and saya as Ted says.

On a the bright side,I don't think Namikawa sells hinokiin any case!

[Gadge]

Jason - You are probably right about Hoop not being a true pine. It's a beautiful timber. I made the attached kayak frame from it and it's still good after 10 years of paddling.

 

Caleb - I don't have saya-nomi so have only used my normal nomi. I don't plan to make more tsuka, but if I do I'll make some saya nomi.

 

Garry

hb_frm3.tif

[jason_mazzy]

that frame is beautiful