Soshu?

[jct3602]

A suriage 56.7cm blade with a lot of nie effects; although buried under the nie, the habuchi is consistent thickness nioi.  Will be heading off for polishing shortly, but interested if anyone has any thoughts on its origin.  Also, there are some nie formations near the shinogi in one of the pictures that I wonder how to describe them - dense jinie or something else?  The overlying nie almost buries the lines of the hamon near the nakago on both sides; however, the blade is machi-okuri so that area was not the original base.  Dense sunagashi also obscures the basic hamon through much of the blade; the reason for the one out of place picture was to try to show the hamon.

 

Thank you,

 

john

[paulb]

Hi John

There are not so many Soshu blades in circulation to compare anything with and the condition of this one and the images dont make any assessment too easy. My initial reaction is that if this is Soshu it would be a very late example. However I think the hamon looks too contrived and the nie rather chunky and ugly which would lead more towards a Mino influenced school.

Sorry this is all guesswork because the condition and images really dont allow to much study of detail.

[jct3602]

thanks Paul -

      I think it is Mino also; people who have seen it live have a variety of other opinions.  Michael Bell, who makes Japanese swords and is a neighbor of mine in Oregon, thinks Soshu.  My personal mentor (who has unearthed 4 swords that went Juyo and has a 5th awaiting polish (a very fine ko-motoshige)) thinks Bizen, either a Soden smith or an early Sukesada.  Michael feels that the upthrust portions of the hamon on the inside of the blade are not really togari.  Both of my friends have seen the blade often over a 10 year period,

 

     The blade is tachi mei, but the top 2 characters of both the signature mei and the date mei have been filed over; there are about 5 characters visible on each side, and a portion of a 6th on the signature side where the nakago ends.  The nie is actually much nicer looking under normal conditions, but I wanted to get a picture and it was expanded.  The motohaba is 2.65cm and the sakihaba is 1.75cm, koshisorii.  Since it is marumune along with being tachi mei, I think it was a late koto (1500s) attempted copy of some earlier blade.  the visible characters of the date mei are 14th year (the 10 character is a little questionable), 2nd month, a day.  The signature is kuni - (tsugu or ji) - sa - emon -nojo - unreadable partial character.  the kuni from its position I believe is the 3rd character of a province designation (parallel to the 10 character on the opposite side).  If the date mei is actually 14th year, that would severely limit the possible periods, since there are only 2 reigns before 1469 that lasted that long, but 5 between then and 1600.

 

    Hopefully I can get some better pictures before I send it off - there are some relatively long (5+cm)  inazuma/kinsuji that look interesting.

 

    Thank you for your thoughts; wish I could get clearer pictures to present.

 

    john

-

[jct3602]

More poor pictures - 1st from outside of blade 2nd from inside.  Showing either kinsuji/inazuma or very thick sunagshi lines.

 

      john

 

 

[mdiddy]

Interesting sword. I would recommend not taking the signature at face value. 'Sneaky gimei' should always be in the back of the mind for a sword appraiser. If it was a cherished signature, why did they not save it instead of filing over the top of it (and sounds like they truncated the end with suriage). Having not seen the signature, we can not say for sure, but I am suggesting that if the signature does not confirm the workmanship, then some healthy skepticism may be in order. Would also free you up to explore a lot of eras outside the date range confinement.

 

Please share pictures of shape and nakago. They would add a lot to the discussion!

[SAS]

I am surprised no one has said "acid" yet.....can't really say so myself, though the very clean condition of the pitting and the bold differentiation of the coloration of the steel is suggestive.

[Caleb Mok]

Honestly i.e. without trying to hide ignorance i think it is a ~soft high grit~ stone finish.  A "Nubatama 15000 grit stone" (intended for tools NOT swords) among others will make a hocho's cladding, soft steel EXTREMELY matte and white, and the hard cutting steel rather mirror-like.  As high grit stones cannot effectively removing pitting, that would explain why al of it is still there. (as to why the pitting is so everywhere and uniform i don't know...i've never seen it myself but then i've never seen anything  )

 

I was of the opinion that acid will make the ha more matte than this; please educate me if this is wrong -Caleb

[Jamie]

 

I think I see why they might say soshu. It appears there is some tobiyaki towards the tip. The hamon doesn't look soshu to me though. I am no expert nor am I as experienced as mr bell. I do study soshu extensively though. Maybe with nakago photos we'd have better basis for judgement. It's still just difficult from pics though

[SAS]

It is very difficult to say anything with certainty, particularly from photos, but if acid had been used (say to remove rust) then was followed by a stone which had the characteristics that polish the ha and matte the ji, it might look like this.  Is the mune of your sword flat? I have a wakizashi that has a similar shape that also shows the ha dark and light depending on the angle, could be the steel and the level of polish. (reminds me when Kawachi sensei was asked about why the steel forms hamon, he said something like "Please ask steel."

[jct3602]

Thanks for all the replies -

 

     Been away following my favorite college football team.  No acid was used at any point to remove rust - just uchiko and occasionally a slurry of hazuya paste.  After that, used a slurry from a 6000 grit finishing stone; originally with rice paper and later with soft cotton; has taken me over 10 years, little by little.  The remaining pits are about 5 - 10% of the original pitting; monitored throughout by Michael Bell, who has more than a passing acquaintance with polishing, since he studied with Nakajima in San Francisco and now makes swords.  I stopped for about 4 years before I found the 6000 grit stone, since the surface was showing some etching.  In any event, Michael has followed it since I got it as a mass of rust 10 years ago and in his professional opinion I have done no harm and a lot of good (no one had any idea of all the activity that was going to show up; I was advised by a dealer to throw it away when I first bought it).  It will be heading off to Japan for polish shortly.

 

   Will post some more pictures - both sides of the mei, the original internet pictures of the blade, and the hada pattern when I stopped for fear of etching.

 

    john

[SAS]

I wouldn't have thrown it away either

[jct3602]

Hi again -

 

    More thumbnails - the parallel lines of undulating higher carbon metal run unbroken the entire length of the blade to the kissaki.

 

    For SAS - the blade has a very shallow marumune that is also hardened; tears of hardening dropping from the mune into the shinogi-ji throughout.  In at least one area, they also have a visible nioi habuchi.

 

    john

[jct3602]

Hi SAS -

 

     Pictures of the shallow marumune and one more of hada.

 

     john

[jct3602]

hi SAS -

 

    Picture of the temper in the shinogi-ji.  (not a great picture, but same sort of activity dropping from the mune entire length both sides)

 

     john

[SAS]

nice photos....I have thought that the koto makers must have induced hardening on the mune of their blades to control sori...seems likely based on your photo.

[Surfson]

Not going to weigh in on the kantei, but do I see lots of pitting in this blade?   When you first found it was it encrusted with pitting rust?   Aren't you worried that it will come back from Japan full of pits?  Looks like you have brought it to a stage where it can be enjoyed, and maybe that is the best strategy now - to just enjoy it.    

[Jim P]

Hi john , IMHO, Robert  has got it right just enjoy it for what it is, It has some ? marks and sending it to Japan for polish may make them worse the opan layer (ware)  on the mune that runs in to the Nakago  is just one of the ? marks and I also dont think its Soshu but Bizen,late koto (1500s) are good possibilities. The only way you are going to get some informed info is to send it in for shinsa and no disrespect to your friends you need outside help before you start to spend $ on it.
 

[jct3602]

Hi Jim -

     Asked Michael Bell the swordmaker about the muneware and he said it was a minor problem that a good polisher could make virtually invisible.

My 2 mentors have both strongly urged me to get it polished; Michael and Stephen Strauch in Portland (Steven has unearthed 4 swords in the US that went Juyo after polishes, and now has a ko-Motoshige that after a top polish will probably be even better than the 1st 4).  Stephen gave me the name of a polisher/s that was recommended to him by Dr. Tanobe, and presently trying to make connections.  If unsucessful, will submit it to shinsa in Burlingame in the fall.  As an aside, Michael recommended getting it polished before my other polish-worthy blade, which papered as NTHK kanteisho with a den Kunimune atribution at the last Burlingame shinsa (Jimmy Hayashi earlier said it was late Kamakura or early Nanbokucho).

    Personally, am very curious as to what the polisher would attempt to present; the hada is very strong, but so are the nie effects.  Stephen's opinion is 1500's Bizen or a very early Sukesada; he thinks he sees utsuri where all i can see are areas of profuse nie along the shinogi.  Jimmy says Mino, Michael says Soshu; all 3 of them know way more than i do, though my opinion is Mino.  The partial mei also inclines me to your 1500's opinion; if the reign year is indeed 14th, that makes a 1500's date very likely (only 3 that long or longer previous to 1500 - shohei, oyei, and bunmei, but 4 between 1500 and 1600 - yeisho, tembun, tensho, and keicho - brit spellings, lol). 

 

Thanks for all of the fine input

 

    john

[Kronos]

bunmei looks like a likely candidate, I'd be confident it's muromachi either way. I'd say have a window put in and take it from there.

[SAS]

I do not think it is so much of what a polisher would be trying to present, so much as correcting geometry and faithfully restoring the sword to its original condition as closely as possible, while safeguarding the remaining life of the sword. Then an attribution may be better made, in my opinion.

[jct3602]

Hi James -

     It feels like Muromachi to me also.  The tachimei and very shallow marumune initially threw me off, but perhaps it was from a rustic area.  As an old Japanese gentleman at the Burlingame token-kai observed, it seems that the smith was illiterate and possibly copying from something a priest gave him.  Given that the more well-known areas had people for hire to chisel signatures, another indication of perhaps non-mainstream origin.   Bunmei would fit with Stephen Strauch's opinion of an early Sukesada.

 

thanks,

 

    john