Baka Gaijin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Good morning all., I have an inkling that the source is not Chinese, but a Sub Continent fairly close by. Rather than advertise the company or companies concerned, try searching images for Indian made Japanese NCO Sword. The results are interesting.
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Mark, I have owned several of these over the years. The one on ebay is a fake. One only has to look at the poorly cut grooves in the blade to know this. The serial number and arsenal marks are wrong. The handle on the sword looks decent (still not original) but the rest is typical poor copy of an original. I hope these photos will help clear up any confusion. Bill Rannow www.artswords.com Bill I have handled MANY aluminium and copper hilted NCO shin guntos over the years and this is an authentic aluminium hilted NCO shin gunto. You use a generic statement that "the markings are wrong"; but provide no substance or reference; they are not wrong. I recommend that you buy a copy of Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (Fuller, Gregory). You refer to the quality of the bohi; these were bad machine made grooves; modern reproductions actually have very smooth and uniform grooves as they have better machines. Mark Austin www.antique-swords.eu PS Your photos of your own gunto do not prove anything about the cited eBay item. 1
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Good morning all., I have an inkling that the source is not Chinese, but a Sub Continent fairly close by. Rather than advertise the company or companies concerned, try searching images for Indian made Japanese NCO Sword. The results are interesting. Please, show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). People here use inklings / feelings and generic statements. Look at the facts. This is an authentic aluminium hilted WW2 Japanse NCO shin gunto that has been varnished / transluscent painted and falsely claimed to be a copper hilted NCO sword. It is NOT a fake. If you say I am wrong, post me the URL of a Chinese / Indian seller NCO Shin gunto that is the same as the cited eBay example / conforms to the above three tests.
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 The copper handle sells for about $20 from China which can be added to any real type 95 second pattern with an aluminum handle. They obviously found a real second pattern aluminum 95 and began copying it. They made an appearance on ebay not long ago in number. We have established beyond doubt it's not a copper handle though, so looking at it as a potential second pattern 95... The saya is an obvious repro with incorrect stamping and proportions. Paint has been covered, enough said. The sarute is correct for an aluminum handle, and the handle itself with the tsuba are fairly good. Fuchi stamps look wrong though. It's also got what looks like wood stain all over it. The blade has a Chinese kissaki. Very ill defined and ugly. The Grove can actually be in two distinct styles depending on arsenal, but this one is given away by being too wide. The serial numbers look pretty good. As has bee noted by several leading experts on Japanese gunto, it's becoming harder to distinguish between real and repro swords, especially type 95 which are all machine made. At best, this is a sword constructed with a mix of obviously Chinese and real parts, at worst the Chinese have improved some of the aspects of type 95 repro. A word of caution to newer collectors: the catch cry for fake swords used to include the words 'ancient, antique and sharp'. People have caught on and now it seems 'estate find, vet bring back, war trophy' are the new catch cry for questionable swords. Someone with some knowledge. But look how to some the serial numbers are wrong, but to others the serial number are right! You say it may be a mix / composite of authentic and repro parts (not very likely....). So, it is either authentic or repro. OK, I am always ready to be corrected. You say these made an appearance on eBay some time ago. Show me one URL that takes me to one of these repros please.
Kai-Gunto Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 The sarute screw on all NCO I have seen is made of iron ,on this its made of brass?
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 The sarute screw on all NCO I have seen is made of iron ,on this its made of brass? Take the steel (not iron) fittings and coat them with varnish and you get what? As I pointed out before, the menuki bolt head is clearly of steel which has been varnished / painted over. It is too light to be brass; you can see it is varnished / painted steel. It is an authentic aluminium (with some steel fittings such as the menuki bolt) hilted NCO gunto that has veen varnished / painted over to try and make it look like an earlier copper hilted gunto. As for the paint on the saya; I did not examine it because paint is superficial and proves nothing, so he may have painted the saya (after all, he varnished / painted the tuska). Again, everyone is so keen to be right. Post the URL of any Chinese / Indian sub-continent seller item that conforms to the three tests I set out. Go on, I bet you can't
SAS Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 There are other things beside your 3 tests, such as the machinery to make a bohi straight, strike stamps in right without distorting the metal being stamped, and many other things. The logic problem you have posed has a built in fallacy, enough said by me. 1
Brian Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 All this over a machine made sword that isn't what it is described as anyways? Seriously?
Shamsy Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Someone with some knowledge. But look how to some the serial numbers are wrong, but to others the serial number are right! You say it may be a mix / composite of authentic and repro parts (not very likely....). So, it is either authentic or repro. OK, I am always ready to be corrected. You say these made an appearance on eBay some time ago. Show me one URL that takes me to one of these repros please. Sure thing! http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Type-95-NCO-Gunto-Sword-Tsuka-handle-tsuba-repro-/151861243897?hash=item235ba2aff9:g:2gIAAOSw7aBVCaVK I'd actually like to buy one, as ebay went from having dozens of these listed to only a few almost overnight. A much better repro than usual, but again not correct from 1st pattern 95. If I have to pick I'd say the sword was one of the above handles with the rest of a Chinese sword. And yes it matters Brian :-P Japanese type 95 are my study and passion!
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 Sure thing! http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-Type-95-NCO-Gunto-Sword-Tsuka-handle-tsuba-repro-/151861243897?hash=item235ba2aff9:g:2gIAAOSw7aBVCaVK I'd actually like to buy one, as ebay went from having dozens of these listed to only a few almost overnight. A much better repro than usual, but again not correct from 1st pattern 95. If I have to pick I'd say the sword was one of the above handles with the rest of a Chinese sword. And yes it matters Brian :-P Japanese type 95 are my study and passion! 1) It is not brass and does not claim to be. It is not the same colour as the cited ebay NCO gunto. 2) It is just the tsuka / handle, not the whole sword. And the fuchi looks like an officer's; nothing like the fuchi on the NCO gunto. It has absolutely no connection proof / argument wise with the NCO gunto. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 There are other things beside your 3 tests, such as the machinery to make a bohi straight, strike stamps in right without distorting the metal being stamped, and many other things. The logic problem you have posed has a built in fallacy, enough said by me. All you have said is your own conjecture in an attempt to prove that you are not wrong. It is your own self-fallacy. What you have said in effect, is that the Chinese reproducers have mastered the aspect of the sarute loop size, the stamping shapes / sizes / types, and where the bohi starts in relation to the habaki, without providing one URL leading to an example of this. And you say the way now to judge fake vs authentic is how straight / smooth the bohi is and some miraculous way steel was somehow stamped without distorting the metal arround it by the Japanese - sorry, but when you strike steel and push it away (as you do with a stamp, it has to go somewhere!). In fact, the original Japanese bohi were cut with human powered cutting tools, and thus are prone to distortion. While the Chinese repros are cut with powered tools and are more likely to be very smooth. You are, with respect, clutching at straws to sustain your own untenable position. I have a lot of experience with these swords. I like issued swords that were used. Not just Japanese; in fact, my favorite swords are French and English Napoleonic swrds. But I do like NCO shin guntos, and also, to a lesser degree, pre-1944 officer guntos. In 15 years I suspect I have handled several repros (which I knew to be repros), perhaps fifty or more authentic NCO guntos, and have owned two early copper hilt examples. Andf whether you like it or not, you are wrong! The cited eBay NCO gunto is authentic, just not an early copper hilted example. Again, it is easy enough to show I do not know what I am talking about, show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). As the cited eBay NCO gunto conforms to these. So, if it is a repro, you will surely be able to point me / everyone to other examples sold by Indian / Chinese sellers. Until you can, you are trying to teach me how to suck eggs.
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 All this over a machine made sword that isn't what it is described as anyways? Seriously? True enough, but I like military issued swords Brian
Kronos Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 All you have said is your own conjecture in an attempt to prove that you are not wrong. It is your own self-fallacy. What you have said in effect, is that the Chinese reproducers have mastered the aspect of the sarute loop size, the stamping shapes / sizes / types, and where the bohi starts in relation to the habaki, without providing one URL leading to an example of this. And you say the way now to judge fake vs authentic is how straight / smooth the bohi is and some miraculous way steel was somehow stamped without distorting the metal arround it by the Japanese - sorry, but when you strike steel and push it away (as you do with a stamp, it has to go somewhere!). In fact, the original Japanese bohi were cut with human powered cutting tools, and thus are prone to distortion. While the Chinese repros are cut with powered tools and are more likely to be very smooth. You are, with respect, clutching at straws to sustain your own untenable position. I have a lot of experience with these swords. I like issued swords that were used. Not just Japanese; in fact, my favorite swords are French and English Napoleonic swrds. But I do like NCO shin guntos, and also, to a lesser degree, pre-1944 officer guntos. In 15 years I suspect I have handled several repros (which I knew to be repros), perhaps fifty or more authentic NCO guntos, and have owned two early copper hilt examples. Andf whether you like it or not, you are wrong! The cited eBay NCO gunto is authentic, just not an early copper hilted example. Again, it is easy enough to show I do not know what I am talking about, show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). As the cited eBay NCO gunto conforms to these. So, if it is a repro, you will surely be able to point me / everyone to other examples sold by Indian / Chinese sellers. Until you can, you are trying to teach me how to suck eggs. I think the problem is that you're only looking at those 3 aspects so your argument is full of fallacies while your entire premise is a strawman as no one is arguing that the sarute loop doesn't rest on the ridge cap etc an example: 1: All sarute loops on gunto's rest on the pommel cap 2: The sarute loop is resting on the pommel cap 3: Therefore this is a Gunto. Substitute for: 1: All nihonto are made of Steel 2: The golden Gate Bridge is made of Steel 3 Therefore the Golden Gate Bridge is a nihonto. and you begin to see the cherry picking of certain aspects without taking the entire gunto into consideration. It is not for us to provide examples of other chinese fakes which conform to your rules, but rather for you to provide real gunto that differ where this chinese fake does. 3
Cuirassier Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 I think the problem is that you're only looking at those 3 aspects so your argument is full of fallacies while your entire premise is a strawman as no one is arguing that the sarute loop doesn't rest on the ridge cap etc an example: 1: All sarute loops on gunto's rest on the pommel cap 2: The sarute loop is resting on the pommel cap 3: Therefore this is a Gunto. Substitute for: 1: All nihonto are made of Steel 2: The golden Gate Bridge is made of Steel 3 Therefore the Golden Gate Bridge is a nihonto. and you begin to see the cherry picking of certain aspects without taking the entire gunto into consideration. It is not for us to provide examples of other chinese fakes which conform to your rules, but rather for you to provide real gunto that differ where this chinese fake does. ???? Your purile insults show your stupidity / low IQ and lack of manners (hence I now reciprocate). Repro NCO guntos, their sarute loops normally extend past the pommel cap, duh! I am beginning to hear the yap, yap, yap of little doggies gavering in packs, barking at their own noises. I came here with good intention to point out facts, not simply conjecture and without insulting others. I said "show me one Chinese / Indian seller that has one of these" and not not one has been produced. Since pointing out facts, not inklings, and in order for the pack to be right, all I have received in thanks is baloney and insults. So screw you all; I am gone, out of here. It is very simple, it is easy enough to show I do not know what I am talking about / that I am wrong. Show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). As the cited eBay NCO gunto conforms to these. So, if it is a repro, you will surely be able to point me / everyone to other examples sold by Indian / Chinese sellers. Until you can, stop the insults, stop the conjecture, and get some lives you amateurs. Sure, I know I am banned, but the fact is the baying pack is wrong. Facts speak louder than BS, and the later is all you have. Screw you. Good riddance. This site may be good for nihonto translation help (and I do appreciate the help I received there), but c**p for everything else. The cited eBay NCO shin gunto is an authentic aluminium hilted Imperial WW2 Japanese item that has varnish or other paint over the hilt, FACT. Anyone that says differently, is a morron; prove me wrong by putting up the URL's to prove your dumb BS. BYE!
Kai-Gunto Posted October 25, 2015 Author Report Posted October 25, 2015 This is one of the better replicas/fake http://www.militaryheritage.com/swords3.htm
Jean Posted October 25, 2015 Report Posted October 25, 2015 That is probably the most childish behaviours I have seen on NMB since I subscribed 5
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