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Advise On Sword Purchase?

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Swordlook

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I have recently been lucky enough (or worked hard enough) to finely get to a place in life where I can afford a nice katana. I’m truly interested in owning one nice sword rather than a few “OK” swords. I’m looking for a sword that would be a great conversation piece. A sword that would appeal to and everyday Joe as well as attract the interest of a seasoned pro. With that being said I have been silently viewing the sword posted below. I know it has been for sale for some time now. The owner appears to be active on this site so I’m not interested in damaging his ability to sell this sword in anyway… I’m just curious what others with more expertise would have to say about it? A good investment sword? Keep looking? Problems with the blade? No judgment papers?

 

Thanks in advance for everyone’s advice!

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Katana-Tameshigiri-1-Body-cutting-Test-Gold-Inlay-Mei-/231717547204?hash=item35f3712cc4:g:bHEAAOSw8d9UwFrU

Brian

Brian

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Please sign posts with a name, thanks.

No-one is going to want to be the one to encourage or discourage someone from spending $14K. That wouldn't be fair on the seller or the buyer.

All that can be said is that the seller is very reputable, lists beautiful swords, and is willing to interact with his customer base on the forum here..which says a lot to me.

The sword is beautiful, you can see that. It has a cutting test, which is always sought after. It is in stunning polish.

I would ask about the possibility of other papers or shinsa, but ultimately you need to decide what you are after. There are a lot of swords out there for $14K. But this one is from a known and liked seller, and is outside Japan, and has a lot going for it. Worth X? That is up to you I'm afraid.

Swordlook Explorer

Swordlook

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My apologies Brian. I didn’t realize this was a rule.

 

As I mentioned in my post I don’t want to hurt anyone’s sale or reputation. I have always been told to never buy a blade without judgment (or off eBay for that matter) so this just seems like the best place for advice before I embarking in contacting the owner.

 

I’m a car restore by trade so I could easily help steer someone in the right direction if they ask my opinion on the price, resale or rarity of a certain vehicle. Just looking for the same.

 

 

Stephen thanks for the reply. Great swords. You touched on my point exactly. I’m looking for a little of both. The sword I posted has an acknowledgment to the smith Suekane but has no Judgment as Brain pointed out. Does anyone know it this looks like Suekane work? As far as I can tell there where three smiths who signed Suekane. Some rated higher than others.

 

Ken Smith

Swordlook Explorer

Swordlook

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  • Author
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Thats my question how accurate are Kinzogan-mei? And is a strange that it isn’t singed (Kao) by the appraiser? I thought that the Honami family would also sign with their given Kao when they did this?

Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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Yes Ken the subject requires a lot of study, we might have some info from Gudio  stuck in info section, on you to do your home work when spending big bucks. Darcy Ted or Guido might chime in, i have beer budget so it out of my league. 

Ken-Hawaii Grand Master

Ken-Hawaii

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Ken, please do sign ALL your posts.  It's easiest to set that up in your profile.

 

My questions to you are, "how many books have you bought to study?" & "how much time have you spent studying?"

 

Anyone can buy a Japanese sword, but getting the most for your money, & your specific interests, is not quite as simple.

 

Ken

 

Nihonto Chicken Community Regular

Nihonto Chicken

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Sorry if I come off as uncharitable, but here goes.  Unless I've entirely miscalculated your nihonto background and expertise, you appear to have some interest in the area, but a lot of "look what I got" wish to show off.  That said, it's an open market, so if you've got the $14k to spend, go ahead, you won't get gypped on this particular deal, and you'll surely have a great sword with which to impress.  But I'm reminded of a story regarding Cher a few decades ago.  In a party at her place, they got a bit inebriated and drew a mustache on an old master oil painting she owned.  Not at all saying you'll deface your sword should you buy it, but unfortunately you simply don't at this time know what you'll have, otherwise than "it's neat", and won't properly value it beyond its sales price.  And given your apparent lack of knowledge, there is a good possibility that you may accidentally screw up the sword or inadvertently allow it to degrade before its time.  I can't stop you from buying this or another sword of its quality, but be aware this isn't like buying a Rolex or Ferrari.  Antique swords aren't made anymore, they can't be replaced, regardless of any amount of money.  If you have a genuine interest in nihonto, then perhaps cool your jets and buy some relevant books first, take a year sabbatical, study up a bit, and then come back with perhaps a more fundamental understanding of the art, as opposed to the "cool factor", involved in this craft.  I apologize if I've misinterpreted your knowledge.  Again, it's your money and it's a free market, let your conscience be your guide.

Alex A Grand Master

Alex A

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Hi Ken, you may be surprised to learn that they are not much of a conversation piece, at least in my experience, unless your talking to someone with an equal interest. In general though, you may get one or two that thinks they are cool and ask "err, is it sharp", but then really annoy you when they test with their finger (touching any of the blade with greasy fingers is a big NO NO). Of the one or two that think they are cool, you may end up getting bored of having to go over the Muramasa story every time you see them. Some folk may think you are a little strange and eccentric, some will raise an eyebrow when they learn of the expense involved in collecting. On occasions when friends and family visit, I prefer to keep the swords out of the way, to prevent injury and damage to the swords.

 

One more thing, swords are not investments, but a luxury.

Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

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This might be my poor Japanese and I apologise in advance if I have it wrong, but is there a discrepancy between the date of manufacture as stated on the papers and that of the cutting test?

Swordlook Explorer

Swordlook

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Thanks everyone for the advice on this… Most have indicated that the price point should be well below the current price of $14K (some suggesting a lot below :( ) So I will continue my search… I have listed out some of the concerns that members have brought to my attention if anyone is interested. The sword seems has a high amount of watchers so possibly others have similar questions.

 

· Shortened Shinshinto blade (undesirable amongst collectors)

 

· No signature/date or loss of

 

· Cutting test has possibly (probably?) been added to make the blade more marketable (i.e expensive)

 

· Cutting test performed by Goto Gozaeman who is basically unknown

 

· Does not have paperwork from well recognized organization (NBTHK, NTHK)

 

· At current price point sword should carry Tokubetsu Hozon

Jean

Jean

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I am disagreeing with your last statement, a lot of swords with hozon kanteisho are worth more than 14K$.

 

Some here:

 

http://iidakoendo.com/item/katana/

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-kanemoto-magoroku

 

6M¥ for a hozon mumei Muramasa on Aoi Art

 

My Tegai/Hosho Yamato Katana is worth much more than 14K€. Don't focuss on kanteisho. Focuss on quality anf a few basic rules like:

 

Don't buy any shortened (suriage) blade starting Muromachi

Brian

Brian

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My opinion differs a bit. Considering the "make an offer" the price would probably be well below the listed price, off eBay.

Then you have a reputable seller, a well done sword, a cutting test that is desirable.....I think this is a great deal. All you have to do is clarify papers and a few points with the seller. But for me, I would consider speaking to the seller about it. You also have lovely koshirae.

If you want a talking point or something that is "in your face" then this does tick a lot of boxes.

Of course, as I said..there are a lot of swords in that bracket, but to get the overall package....not easy.

Oh...and the tester is listed here: http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Testers.pdf

Brian

Brian

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Koto are allowed to be suriage, but a sword loses desirability points the newer it is, if it has been altered.

More important if you are buying for value or investment. For study or enjoyment, it matters less.

Swordlook Explorer

Swordlook

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Great link Alex. Thanks!

 

To the point about price…

 

Members have suggested that most collectors would walkway from a blade with the above issues and that the resale value would be closer to $6K! Original make offer price was over $20K. Which brings me to another thought… (if they are even remotely close on the $6K price) There sure could have been some poor-sap on the wrong side of a bad $10K+ mistake! I understand it’s a free market and some may rejoice in this persons mistake but I myself start to seriously question the ethics of such a transaction. Unless of course the seller know nothing of the above and he himself overpaid and is taking a loss. Which I suppose is conceivable but possibly not completely plausible.

 

-Ken S

Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

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Well, it's a nice, suriage shinto or shinshinto blade but IMHO the papers and maybe the cutting test are dodgy.

 

The cutting test looks more like kinpun mei than the kinzogan mei stated on the papers: it doesn't look like it has been cut with a chisel with inlay added and there is no loss of gold from in the mei which wouldn't be unusual. It's signed with the name of a genuine sword tester, but as stated above, no kao...

 

According to my reading, the papers also say that the blade was made 文久頃 (around Bunkyuu which started 1861). The cutting test says that it was done in Bunsei 文政 starting in 1818. So unless I'm really off the mark (not unusual for the partially educated), the cutting test took place before the papers say the blade was made.  

 

So all in all it doesn't add up for me, but I'm learning so please tell me if I'm overlooking something.

 

Best regards,

John

  • Like 1
Jussi Ekholm Veteran

Jussi Ekholm

Posted
Posted

Ken the difficult thing is that swords are one of a kind items so it is hard to put a set price on an item. Someone will pay more for some item than someone else. The question is how much is that particular sword worth to you, how much are you willing to invest in it?

 

For example I've had an eye out for a certain sword at Japanese dealer for a long while. It's been for a sale for a good while even though for me the price would be perfect and if I would have that amount of free money I would buy it in heartbeat. However it's not considered to be a top deal as it haven't sold in this time. For comparison few last swords added by the seller were sold almost instantly.

 

Nick is a good seller, have you taken a look of this sword, might be something that you are looking for? (it's much easier to "recommend" stuff if you have something specific you are looking for :) ) http://nihontoart.com/item-details.php?id=123

  • Like 1
dig1982 Enthusiast

dig1982

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Jean, about what you say,i must buy a sword of any smith of any quality, muromachi, shinto or shinshinto and the only rule is an ubu nakago? And sorry but i don't need a certificate for the quality of the blade.

Jean

Jean

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Diego,

 

You've got the pasta so now it is only a question of education to get the best deal between quality and price.

 

You must buy the best you can. Rule of thumb: get the best you can for your money. So forget suriage swords and read, re read and re re read NBTHK Shinsa Standards and wonder/ponder what are their underlying reasons.

 

I wonder where you have found that I say that the "only rule" was to buy an ubu nakago sword.

SteveM Grand Master

SteveM

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According to my reading, the papers also say that the blade was made 文久頃 (around Bunkyuu which started 1861). The cutting test says that it was done in Bunsei 文政 starting in 1818. So unless I'm really off the mark (not unusual for the partially educated), the cutting test took place before the papers say the blade was made.  

 

Your reading is correct. It raises a question about the kantei-sho.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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