Grey Doffin Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Isn't there a rule/protocol/whatever that there will be no negative posts added to a For Sale thread? There is currently a thread in this forum that has been garnering unhelpful posts, including at least one by a moderator, most of which have been removed. I didn't want to further muck up the guy's chance for a sale so I started this thread rather than post on his. If something is an outright fraud or if the seller has invited comment, have at it, but shy of that I think we're supposed to keep our opinions to ourselves. Not fair to the seller if other posters are playing spoiler on his thread. Correct me if I'm mistaken, please. Grey 5 Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 It of course depends if one criticizes the quality of photos and states that they make it more difficult to sell or if one criticizes the item or the price setting. KM Quote
DirkO Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Not really Henk, as Grey said we should keep our opinions to ourselves. Because if you post something, it might hurt the sale price. If you have remarks about something for sale, it's best to PM the seller and let him decide, period. 3 Quote
nihonto1001 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Apparently, posting here in an auction format is like a chicken dining with Colonel Sanders:) If you are from the USA, you will understand. 1 Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Interesting viewpoint Dirk. But understandable. Quote
Alex A Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 It is a complete mystery to me why anyone would want to post a negative comment in the for sale section when an item/seller is obviously genuine. Selling swords is a pain in the ass to begin with, without someone posting unwanted, unfounded and unnecessary comments. Personally, i don't think there should be any comments at all, good or bad. Its up to potential buyers to influence themselves. 2 Quote
kissakai Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 When I post items for sale I ask for comments good or bad and only ask that they base a reply on honest data that can be open to scrutiny rather than an opinion! Sometimes I see a reply and another member has asked what the replier has based his opinion and if nothing is forthcoming then I generally ignore it I do this because I may have described it incorrectly and rather the NMB corrected my error rather than the buyer, this way is great for a newbie If a new member puts an item for sale and suckers someone then it's not good for the integrity of the NMB PM's have there place but generally it's best to be open I buy from the NMB because I can virtually guarantee I will not be ripped off and I feel 'safe' Grev UK 1 Quote
christianmalterre Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 there is very certainly a reason why experienced collectors- and i do know a very lot of these gentlemen- only very rarely, (if ever(?)-LOL!) do,- or would post anyhow any negative comment to an whatever expressed sales-add! do please ask yoursself here, as i will certainly not give any further comment on such a topic just so to please you! the "gain/main" principle is always KNOWLEDGE! the "rest will/or will not" follow.... i do not care....! so far, just mine humble comment here, that i totally do agree with Grey´s observation - and i do allow me to add one more but maybe important fact:...it is a modern bad habit to critisise( without connaissance!)....and equally to not ask before ! it is no shame to ask! you will NOT learn without asking! Christian Quote
bigjohnshea Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 I have given negative comments before on one sword that was up for sale here a number of months ago, but the only reason I did it was to prevent someone new to collecting from potentially wasting thousands of dollars on a drastically overpriced sword. I personally feel like there is only so much threshold for profit that a seller can expect before it becomes a rip off to the buyer. As critical as some people are about swords, I see no reason at all to not be critical of what people post for sale, and for how much; particularly when a seller is either purposefully or mistakenly listing something at much too high a price. If you want my honest opinion about why Nihonto are barely selling, or selling slowly, it's because there are so many of them commanding prices that are unrealistic to the average collector. The average middle class income is $52,000. Even spending $2000 of that on a collectible item like a sword is a stretch, let alone the cost of a THozon blade, for example. People cannot afford to get ripped off, and given the number of swords available, it should never happen. If we allow NMB's For Sale section to be the kind if place where that can happen, then this place becomes suspect as a whole. Personally, I think that forbidding comment about price or quality in the sale section is a mistake for this reason. Hope you are all well. Cheers, 1 Quote
mauser99 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 typical of other forums I belong to it's appropriate and accepted to post an item up for discussion before listing it for sale. Then post the link in the add. The opinion of the forum is important and is a critical level of professionalism that needs to be up-held. If an item is questionable a moderator should lock the tread and post his reasons for doing so. Just a thought. Quote
AndyMcK Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 My two cents on this issue are similar to Grey's but also John's. Negative slander or "I wouldn't purchase this nihonto" should not be allowed. But some commenting on overpriced items should, even if the normal rule of doing business is "It is not stupid to ask, but to pay". John gave a valis point on the integrity of these forums as if we do not allow any kind of commenting, we might see an influx of people coming just to sell their wares here as these forums are regarded as trustworthy and thus it can be seen similarily on the sale section of these forums. But where to put the limit and which items can be safely said that are a bargain or otherwise? This might pose a difficult question to answer. Should we limit the comments only on more experienced peers or some other manageable way to make sure that comments are not just "opinions" or sales pitches? Sorry, more open questions than solution proposals.. Antti 1 Quote
Alex A Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 As for butting in on pricing, cant say id be too happy. If I payed £8000 for a sword five years ago and then place it on here tomorrow for £10,000, then who as the right to state I'm asking too much? As stated previously, swords eventually find their own price, without interference If someone is selling junk at £10,000, then obviously it wont sell unless the buyer is a complete idiot. I do wonder sometimes if this site as become the ministry for the protection of newbs, guilty myself. Genuine folk do need to sell swords and hopefully for jolly good prices. 1 Quote
bigjohnshea Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 With regard to commenting on price or quality, people should have to support their comments with a justification. In the case of the sword I was commenting on above, a simple comment such as "I can find three swords online, from reputable sellers, that are similar to yours but are listed at 30% of your asking price. Why are you asking so much for your sword?" Instead I had to attack the sellers comments concerning the sword, and in the end most of my comments got deleted, but the sword did not sell here. Maybe elsewhere, but not here. Yesterday I posted a tanto for sale here. Years ago a similar but better quality tanto sold for $4000. My cost for my tanto up to this point was $3400, but I listed it at $2500 because when you consider what it is actually worth, it does not justify what it has cost me. That is my problem, not the buyers problem. I should not expect the buyer to compensate me for my costs on this blade. I found a buyer because the price was fair to begin with, and I worked with them on price a bit more. I lost overall, but in the end the buyer didn't really win or lose. They got what they paid for, a sword worth about what they paid for it, nothing more, nothing less. That is what people should get when they spend the kind of money these swords are worth. A square deal. 1 Quote
bigjohnshea Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 On 10/8/2015 at 6:17 PM, Alex A said: If someone is selling junk at £10,000, then obviously it wont sell unless the buyer is a complete idiot. And what if they're selling a sword you can get on ebay for 700$ for 2700$ here? Sure it's not 10,000$ but 2700$ with the right types of claims is just low enough a price to make someone think they are getting something worth 2700$ when in reality they are just being screwed, and the board is facilitating it. To answer your first question, when you sell an 8000$ sword for 10,000$ chances are it's still only worth 8000$ when they try to sell it a year later. YOU know you're asking too much, and the buyer you duped will know when they have to resell it. Quote
Alex A Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Hello John 1) none of my business. 2) why am I duping them?, I'm entitled to try and make a profit. How would you have liked it if I had interfered with your recent Katana advert? .I Iiked the sword, but thought it was overpriced. Reason.....no papers. Quote
bigjohnshea Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Alex, The humerous thing is you're right, it is likely not selling because it has no papers. But that does not mean it is overpriced. Find another like it for less, with or without papers. You on the other hand, selling for 10,000$ a hypothetical sword you paid 8000$ for, know that it is overpriced. You state you are entitled to try and make a profit. Are you really? What have you done to earn that profit other than buy a sword for one price and sell it for another price? That is nothing, and the only reason why someone can sell an 8000$ sword for 10,000$ is because the buyer doesn't know what you paid for it. Mind you, this is not the same thing as buying stock for 1$ and selling it for 10$ when the value changes. The value of your 8000$ sword does not change just because you bought it. Quote
bigjohnshea Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 On 10/8/2015 at 6:53 PM, Alex A said: 1) none of my business. Ofcourse not. You clearly have expressed an interest in selling things for more than they are worth, so why would you intercede other than to try and sell the same buyer something else of greater price than it's worth. I'd like to add, I'm not trying to smear you as a person Alex, just trying to get people to see that there really is no place in the collecting of valuable things like swords for making an undue profit. Quote
Alex A Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 So in your eyes John, making a profit is a bad thing, god bless ya. Ps, don't worry about smearing me, not assed Those who know me, know me. 1 Quote
paulb Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 I agree with Grey's original post. I am a little perplexed by the perception or statement that something is "over priced". In this as in any other antique or second hand market there is no correct price. The only governing factor is if anyone is willing to pay what is being asked. We have covered this many times before. If someone buys something for £10 today but feels its worth 100 tomorrow there is no reason that they shouldn't put it up for sale at that price. Provided they offer an honest appraisal of what it is, the good and the bad about it and answer any questions then I dont see that they are doing anything wrong. It is for potential buyers to decide if the article is at an acceptable price to them and represents good value. If they are in doubt they can also seek other opinions before committing themselves. Every auction house in the world has numerous buyers dong exactly this, buying at one price and then reselling via a shop or website at a profit. Thats how they survive. No one is forcing any body to buy anything here and the only determination of price and value is if it is bought and the buyer is satisfied with their purchase. 2 Quote
mauser99 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 price is the only thing that is subjective. If the item is authentic or not is the bigger issue. We can ask what we want for "our" stuff that doesn't mean someone will pay it. Auctions are where price sometimes gets fueled by ego's and competition and that effects the end result. There is none of that in a direct sale. Quote
dig1982 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 If i post something to sell that is genuine, with no problems or surprise and with a right price, i'm not worried about negative comments because how can somebody leave a negative comment without any reason? Quote
Justin Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 I agree with Grey. No comments. This is similar to auction houses, eBay, Yahoo Japan and pretty much any other online sales site. If you don't like something or think it is overpriced then tell your friends or pm people. Don't jeapodise other people's sale by posting negative comments. Can these for sale posts be locked? Once sold then item is removed. Or perhaps items stay on for 3 months unless sold before. I remember when I first joined this forum (under Rich S) it was just a thumbnail, description and price set out in a grid pattern. No comments were possible. This was better in my opinion. 1 Quote
nihonto1001 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Quote You on the other hand, selling for 10,000$ a hypothetical sword you paid 8000$ for, know that it is overpriced. You state you are entitled to try and make a profit. Are you really? What have you done to earn that profit other than buy a sword for one price and sell it for another price? That is nothing, and the only reason why someone can sell an 8000$ sword for 10,000$ is because the buyer doesn't know what you paid for it. I'll have to disagree with you on this John. No one is forcing you to buy this hypothetical sword, and it does not matter what the seller paid for it. Its not like we wait in "bread lines" to buy swords. Because each sword is unique, and the sword market is relatively small, prices are set more arbitrarily, like many other luxury items. In my opinion, these things should be valued more, instead of being "whored out". I also feel it is in very bad taste to leave negative "Sword Gestapo" type comments on a classified ad. 3 Quote
Jean Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Once again, I entirely agree with Paul (he is my clone or the opposite ) As long as the object is presented honestly showing all its defaults (ware) and qualities, the price asks for is not my problem. There are rules which have been explained elsewhere (rules of thumb for newbies). Now people as it has been stated above are free to ask by PM an opinion to a more advanced collector, in case of doubt, and there always must be a doubt. I only post positive comments when I consider it is a flying tart (beware, because it is my personal opinion which I share - LoL) and it does not sell. When the price looks too high or the item not exceptional, I don't comment. After 40 years of collecting there are things I shall never buy because they are not up my standards and it is not a question of being elitist but of having done my homework. But, if somebody is ready to buy them why not. Among my gokaden, I have already found 2 buyers for 2 swords. They have not even flinched at the requested prices. Only one comment, they say it was a bargain... btw, They are not for sale There are enough benchmarks among dealers'stuff for someone to make up his mind on quality/price ratio. 3 Quote
Grey Doffin Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Posted October 8, 2015 Just to clarify, and perhaps to sum up for those of us who agree with me, I'm not bringing this up for my benefit. I'm a big boy, I'm in the business, and I can take my lumps. The few times I've posted in this forum, I usually invite comments. But for someone who is new to selling, trying to build his collection by moving out a less desirable sword for something better maybe, it seems in poor taste to rain on his parade. If a new buyer spends more than he should, it's not like we haven't repeatedly warned him to study first and buy later. And to the question: "how can somebody leave a negative comment without any reason?" Somebody will. It's like your mother said. If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. Grey 3 Quote
Greg F Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I agree with Grey, I also agree with Jean that if i was unsure about a sale i should pm a more experienced member to ask their opinion. I think you had a few members excited for a second there Jean. Greg Quote
Alex A Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 One more point that as always been on my mind, and I will state now that on certain occasions I asked for opinions on swords myself, so I'm on no side. Its all well and good passing on advice to newbies, but there is the other side of the coin and I think it was mentioned earlier. Someone passing on their advice may very well loose a genuine someone a sale, simple as that, a plus=minus:( Quote
Brian Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Thanks for the comments folks. The rules have been working for us, and I am not going to make any changes for now. The guidelines are, no comments on for sale items unless the poster allows/requests them. I do allow compliments or positive comments though. Negative comments are best directed via pm, although they would be allowed in cases of blatant fraud, misrepresentation or dishonestly. When in doubt, ask a mod. NO comments on pricing allowed. Pricing is up to the seller. If it is too expensive, then don't buy it. If the seller asks for comments on his price, you may comment, as long is your input is fair, honest, reasonable and backed up with reasons. 9 Quote
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