Let's Think About The Gokaden

[Peter Bleed]

The Board has enjoyed Jean’s thought-provoking thread on a collection achieved.  I sincerely thank Jean for starting that thread.Like lots of members, I enjoyed the discussion and admired Jean’s achievement. It has also been useful for lots of NMB members to think about what constitutes a “collection”, what is  “collectible”, and when and how to stop collecting. Teasing apart the issues that Jean has provided for us is interesting and wonderful. I really don’t want to tell anybody what constitutes a “collection” or what is a good collecting strategy, but I love those questions. I also admire the group of swords that Jean has worked hard to assemble.  Bravo! Bravo! Maximo Bravo!

A key part of Jean’s collecting focus has been the Gokaden and that DOES deserve consideration.. I understand that lots of sword aesthetes find the Gokaden useful,. But let me just say it.  I have never been able to make the idea, the approach, or the categories of the Gokaden WORK. The gokaden does NOT help me collect.

To illustrate this point, let me relate the apocryphal story of a “Car Collector” who was a deeply impressed by the work of the well-known MIT technology historian, E. G. Tilden. I assume that we are all aware of Dr. Tilden’s view that world automobile industry can be understood in terms of 5 national automobile types:

1. U.S.,  
2. British,
3. French,
4. Japanese, and
5. German.

With careful study, the “Car Collector” came to appreciate these distinct categories.  He also came to admire Dr. Tilden. Cars are not easy to collect, but the Car Collector had a 5 car garage, so he decided to acquire a good representative of each national type.  What he acquired was:

1.  US - A 1919 Model T Ford, found in a barn in Arizona and in “original” condition OMG!
2. British - A great 1950 Morris Minor MM Sedan formerly owned by a RAF Ace.
3. French - An attractive 1934 Bugatti that may have had a replaced front left fender.
4. Japan - One of the last surviving Nissan three wheel trucks made in the 1950s.
5. German - An exquisite 1959 Volvo limousine used in his daughter’s wedding.

Could the Car Collector stop collecting?

Peter

[Jean]

Peter,

 

Explain me why the gokaden should help you collect? There is absolutely no reason why

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hi, Peter:

 

You make some good points, but I think that rather than viewing the Gokaden as "types," the original intent was to classify Nihonto by "features." In other words, Bizen blades (my personal favorites) could be generally grouped by a koshizori sugata, relatively low shinogi, choji-midare hamon, & mokume hada with utsuri. None of the other Gokaden schools show these specific features...generally.

 

If you choose not to categorize by blade features, then every blade would be unique (as they are), & collecting would be a bit more haphazard.... 

 

Ken

 

[Shamsy]

Reading this more generally, it's an interesting topic and one I'm sure a few people are struggling with right now.

 

My own experience with collecting has evolved over the years, I'd like to say become more discerning and patient. From that initial 'just about anything' most of us start with, to settling on a nation, then looking for every recognised patterns, then into specific patterns and rare pieces... but now that I am very much interested in nihonto, I'm almost starting the cycle again! Hopefully I can say I've learned something, since I'm being very selective and taking my time trying to determine if I can find a specific attribute for collecting. On the off chance that it may assist others, some of my ideas for focus are;

 

School of smiths (Soshu, Bizen etc)

Time period (Koto, Gendaito etc)

Line of smith (As Joe collects)

Sword type (Tachi, katana, Wak, Tanto)

Any combination of above!

 

"Can the car collector stop collecting?"

 

Only when he is satisfied. As it is a matter of opinion which cars are best representations of each country, his opinion is the one that matters. He may be satisfied with what he has, or he may take the view that there will undoubtedly always be a 'more original' 'better condition' or 'nicer paint colour' available.

[DirkO]

[*]German - An exquisite 1959 Volvo limousine used in his daughter’s wedding.

 

German Volvo? Those will indeed be hard to find. Swedish Volvo on the other hand.... ????????????

[SwordGuyJoe]

Interesting topic.  For me, this all boils down to a few questions:

 

1. Should a collector narrow their field of collecting?

-- I think that - practically - they must, as everything is collectable to someone and collecting everything is impractical.  Additionally, I think that since we're all on a site focused on Japanese art related to swords in some way, we have already narrowed at least in a very basic sense

 

2. Does someone need to narrow even further?

-- For me, I had to.  I initially collected "Samurai Swords", then narrowed in to Showa era, then narrowed down further to gendaito.  I then found that even that was too broad for my wallet/attention, so I settled on a specific lineage.  Is it necessary? No, it's not, but for me, I needed something to focus on and study that I truly appreciated.  Jean has the Gokaden, Chris B. has gendai smiths from Tokyo, etc., etc.  I think the focus of a collection (in my opinion) need only be as narrow as someone's financial, knowledge, and time appetite and their ability to be satisfied with their chosen area of study/collecting.  Once the satisfaction and interest is gone, it is either time to move on or perhaps time to stop and be contented by the collection you have amassed.

 

Just my two cents and at that, likely over valued.

[Geraint]

Hi Dirk.

 

German Volvo? Those will indeed be hard to find. Swedish Volvo on the other hand....  

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Dirk

 

German Volvo is a rare offshoot branch who learnt their trade under the original Volvo makers and then emigrated to a castle town to supply the demands of their Graff.

 

All the best.

[DirkO]

Didn't know that, Geraint - thanks! I stand corrected.

[paulb]

I think I have gone through most collecting itterations but still havent reached a conclusion. I started as most do collecting all and everything I could find that might have been Japanese. I then went through a Hizen phase, then a Koto phase. Even now I find that when I examine it in detail I have totally failed to specialise in a given area.

My first reaction was Yes I specialise in Yamashiro- except I only have one Yamashiro work. I specialise in koto except 40% of my collection isnt koto.

 

So what do I collect? Having thought about it the The overiding thing I collect is Jigane. There is a consistency in the blades I have and that is they all exhibit certain traits within the hada. But that isnt all. As well as beautiful hada the relationship between the hada and hamon plays a major part and then overall and equally important is the shape and how that works with the other features.

It is true that for my own subjective view I find the combinations seen in Yamashiro, or Yamashiro influenced work most appealing. But I have also seen many swords from others of the main traditions that I find equally appealing. So in reality I dont specialise in anything. I look for work that I think to be of good quality and to my eye has that "just right" quality.

The Gokaiden is, as has often been said here, a relatively modern concept and was an attempt to try and put some order in to the way blades could be catagorised and by and large it works very well. However there is an undeniable truth that good (and bad) swords were produced in all traditions and all periods. Therefore to restrict oursleves to a specific school, time or type is very limiting. It is also what many collectors do in an attempt to reach a completeness within their collections (e.g.. I have an example of each generation of Mishina smiths or Tadayoshi or whatever) What this single minded approach can do if we are not careful is lead us to ignore some really stunning work. For years I have paid scant attention to Bizen blades and shin-shinto work. In the past few years I have seen work from Osafune smiths and some Late work that I would be delighted to add to my collection.

As will be seen from contributions here there are as many approaches to collecting as there are collectors, none are right or wrong. I applaud those who, like Jean, have set themsleves a goal and dedicated time and effort to achieving it. There must be great satisfaction in completing such a task. For me responding to what is in front of me regardless of who or when it was made seems to becoming a more typical approach.

[Guido]

Didn't know that, Geraint - thanks! I stand corrected.

Geraint is pulling your leg, Dirk ...

[Ted Tenold]

It should be remembered that the gokaden were established in an effort to categorize a large variety of work into neat little boxes. Even within the Gokaden, there are some grey areas. Bugatti being classified as a French car is a good example. Bugatti was Italian born and moved to a German city before World War I. After the war the German city became a French city. Now Buggati is owned by Volkswagen. So is it Italian? Is it German? Is it French? Well, yes, no, and yes and no. So for a French car, why not a nice little deux chavet? Pretty classic French if you can keep it running.

My point without straying off topic too far here, is there are many "exceptional exceptions" that don't quite fit exactly into those boxes that some really nice swords might not make it into a collectors radar if too much focus is placed on generalizations. Furthermore the classifications become even more blurred once we reach Shinto and later.

So the gokaden becomes a great method of introduction to swords so one can become familiar and develop an understanding of one's personal tastes, then focus on what they like in a sword. How that fits within a strictly "gokaden" format will vary and becomes less important in my opinion.

Volvo? German? Anybody who is worked on a Swedish car knows that Germans invented over engineering and Swedes perfected it.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Much like Soden-bizen work

[Jussi Ekholm]

Guido don't you know this rare german Volvo 190? I attached you a picture of this car as the few surviving examples are cherished by collectors worldwide. Luckily I photoshopped found this rare picture of it.

 

On more serious note I find it funny how specific my own collecting interests have evolved in the last few years. As I know I can only own few blades I want them to be exactly to my liking, well of course as near that as I can achieve with the very limited budget that I have. I browse sword sites pretty much daily but even though I see lots of amazing items for sale very few really speak to me - as in that is something I would like to have in my own collection.

 

It's good thing to appreciate various swords but I know that as I can only have few swords in my own collection I want them to fulfill my own collecting desires as much as possible. I'll definately pick the sword I like over a higher quality item no questions asked if the price is similar.

[Jean]

http://markussesko.com/2015/06/30/kantei-4-foreword/

[Toryu2020]

The Gokaden existed remember before someone tried to catagorize them,

the idea is to use these traditions as a way to follow the development of the sword, learn the many schools in each group and group the artists by tradition and location. In so many words a tool for kantei - along the way we learn the aesthetics that are appreciated by the Japanese but there is no rule that says we have to ape them.

 

You can have an unsigned painting by unknown artist that cost you little - if it gives you pleasure and brightens your home then what need have you of art history classes. Plenty of rich men fill lavish homes with famous art and have no idea why the works are famous. If they are happy then who is to say what is a right or wrong way to appreciate art.

 

The Gokaden does not help you collect, unless you are a collector who desires to hold a sword in hand, and without benefit of signature or papers you know from your own study whose work it is. You seek the opnions of others to confirm your own and your appreciation of the art is not just from a love of the form and craftsmanship but a real knowing, an understanding just where your sword fits in time and history.

 

You dont need the Gokaden unless you need the knowing...

[Jean]

the Gokaden is interesting when you want to compare side by side the differences between major schools, hada and hamon. you can see the relationship between Yamato and Yamashiro and their differences in Hamon and Hada. you can seen Bizen standing apart with its flamboyant hamon, Soshu with fantastic hamon and hada, Mino with its Soshu and Yamato influences. You don't need them but the Gokaden represents more than 80% of the Koto world production, so it is a reference in Koto world.

[Peter Bleed]

I am not sorry for having started this discussion. I learned some things, no one seemed seriously angered, and some may also have profited by the posts. Thank you all.

Jean is absolutely correct; the gokaden need have nothing to do with an individual’s collecting. We can and should collect whatever we want. But the discussions in this thread do seem to indicate that lots of collectors do use the concept and structure of the gokaden as a basis for inspecting early koto swords and assessing their history and “collectability”. 

Whatever it is that we decide to acquire and hold, it is hard not to be interested in the history of sword making in Japan. Where and how did this ART – or at least this routinized artistic craft – come into being? Does the gokaden help us answer that question? My personal answer to that question, is “No.”

Maybe with a great personal teacher and access to terrific swords,  I could appreciate the 5 traditions. But as explained and described in published sources,  I can’t get much use from the “gokaden”.

1.  The constituent schools of the traditions seem to my eye to have made widely diverse swords. A Jaguar and a Morris are both British, but they look different  - like, say,  Hosho and Tegai. 
2. The 5 traditions also seem poorly conceived. Golly, the smiths assigned to Soshu and Yamashiro were from many different locales. In other words, as a classification the categories seem quite arbitrary. I tried to suggest that by assigning Volvos to the “German school.” 
3. Furthemore, the quality of blades assignable to the five traditions seems extremely  variable. In terms of quality, is it appropriate to compare a Rai with a Ryokai? A Model T and a Bugatti IMHO.
4.  Finally, there all those “other smiths” – that made swords before the Muromachi era but that are outside the whole gokaden system . And why in the world does Mino get counted at all?

It seems to me that the basic  question is not why Japanese sword tend to look slightly different. The challenge to me is  determining why they all look remarkable alike - - for a thousand years.. Clearly there were systems within Japan after about 1000AD that got basic standards and practices set and widely shared.  The 5 traditions were part of that, but there must have been more.

Peter

[Jussi Ekholm]

It seems to me that the basic  question is not why Japanese sword tend to look slightly different. The challenge to me is  determining why they all look remarkable alike - - for a thousand years.. Clearly there were systems within Japan after about 1000AD that got basic standards and practices set and widely shared.  The 5 traditions were part of that, but there must have been more.

Peter

I think you can look at European swords throughout the years and they will look somewhat similar to each other for a thousand years. It's a design that worked for the people who used it. Maybe not the best design in the world (neither Japanese or European) but it's something that will definately be capable of killing you.

 

Here is Geibig typology that is used in c. Viking period swords

 

 

Here is Oakeshott typology that is used on c. medieval swords.

 

 

Yes there are in my opinion greater differences in European swords throughout the years than in Japanese swords but it's understandable given the circumstances. There are some regional varieties so some swords can be for example be identified as English, Italian, German, Scandinavian etc. longswords (but you have to look the sword as whole, not just the blade) and similar to that. Some viking sword styles are much more common in some areas based on the findings etc.

 

1. I think this is a tricky one and it takes lots of knowledge to say 5 big Yamato schools from each other (at least in my opinion). As I've always been wrong with my Tegai - Shikkake guesses, for the few times I've had the joy of guessing. I'm not sure if you have nihontō kōza but in that book (and probably in many others) you can see the distribution map of Yamato province and that it was divided to 15 areas. The text about various Yamato schools will then explain you their historical origins. As an area Yamato province is quite small, as most of the Japanese provinces tend to be as there are so many of them. So the various schools within the province are very close to each other geographically. - For example we have various regional knife styles around Finland. I can identify the few well known ones but experts would probably be able to tell around what part of the region it was made and by whom, similar to Japanese swords.

 

 

Gokaden as a classification is most likely not the answer I think you seek Peter (based on the part after numbering). I think you are trying to find out about the line where very early Japanese swords evolved into a curved single edged sword, and why it stayed that way? Carlo Tacchini has written an excellent article about the evolution of the Japanese sword, it can be found on the articles section http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/47-on-the-origins-of-nihonto/

[Stephen]

Thanks Jussi, i hadn't read that in a long time ,  miss you Carlo!

[Peter Bleed]

 Jussi has brought this discussion to a point of sterile finality. The fact that northern  European swords made between 900 and 1200 AD can be assigned to types is meaningless. The fact that English/French sword blades of the 18^th century can be seriated into decadal increments is –likewise – irrelevant. Jussi seems not to know this, but he appears to have played games of kantei  and done well  enough to get a dozan. It’s a game, Cricket. But, “Ganbatte.”

Please do reread Markus’ wonderful treatment. He says that about 20% of koto don’t clearly fit into the gokaden. Well, gee, let’s do the math ,  .    .  5 traditions (that are themselves are admittedly pretty sketchy”)  plus another 20%. (Oh, and we all agree that the Mino den is a mystery tradition that popped late “from somewhere.” ) . And so what does the gokaden describe? Maybe something like 60% of pre-Muromachi era swords.

Ahh, please pass the shiny sharp stuff.

P

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well I guess that I don't understand how that post of mine sterilized the discussion. I am not a car person, and I am not aware of Dr. Tilden's classification. Heck my car knowledge starts mostly from late 90's, so discussing old cars with me is bit limited. For me sword & knife classifications make a lot more sense as they are what I've been mostly interested in. Classifications are just classifications, they make things easier and sometimes humans like to put things in neat little boxes.

 

Gokaden is just a form of classifying things. If you don't like it you don't need to use it. You can for example just speak of provinces by themselves without any bigger classifications.

 

I am personally starting to be more a fan of the gokishichidō classification as I am learning more and more. Markus of course explains many of the errors of this classification in his blog post oppsed to gokaden. Having Enju as an example of Kyūshū-mono and it's connection to Yamashiro tradition. However I am not an art connoisseur or metallurgical expert, I'm a historical romantic so many times the minor details are not for me. For example in Kyūshū-mono I like Bungo and Naminohira, Bungo swords from Muromachi period are not generally appreciated very highly but they are good enough for my taste. I know I can't collect the highly regarded smiths/works so I must try to collect good swords from lesser regarded smiths.

 

I don't know why you dislike the Mino tradition? Mino was a highly important base of sword making during the time when Japan was in turmoil, so to me that is historically important.