Solid Gold Menuki

[Heringsdorf]

Thank you Curran for the information.

I spoke to Markus Sesko, and he thinks it's either 6th or 7th generation Yoshioka.

 

I agree with you that the dealer I bought this set from is honest and nice to deal with. I purchased a Kozuka from them before and everything was great.

[b.hennick]

Sorry to be lat to the show and tell. Here are a set of solid gold menuki with overlays of silver, shakudo and copper.

 

[Pete Klein]

Yes Barry -- very nifty!

 

Maximillian and Curran -- was the dealer Yashima by any chance?

[Stephen]

Pretty cool Barry  

[Heringsdorf]

Hello Pete,

 

I got them from Wakeidou.

[Pete Klein]

Ah so.  Yes, very nice people and excellent quality.

[Heringsdorf]

Yes they have really nice stuff. All very good quality. I'm very happy with the kozuka and Menuki I got from them.

[jason_mazzy]

Wow B. Hennick. interesting to use the more expensive material and add cheaper overlays instead of a cheaper base metal and more expensive overlays.

[Heringsdorf]

This is the kozuka I got from them.

[nihonto1001]

Ted,  

 

Nice Dragons.  Are they Goto?

[Ted Tenold]

Hi John,

 

Not Goto.  They are Hozon papered to Ko-Kinko actually.  

[Stephen]

the ones i pine for

[Ian]

Another example of overlays on gold

 

Ian

 

[Peter Bleed]

Okay, let's go in a different direction.

Please let me present a wakizashi tsuka.. (the blade is signed Hizen Kikuchi Kunitomo). As you can see, the tsuka is covered with silver rings that a previous owner had held in place with tape, But. the topic here are the menuki.

What is the assembled wisdom of the Forum. Gold?

Peter

[Heringsdorf]

Hi Peter,

The Menuki looks like gold to me.

You can see the kin-sabi (gold rust) on it which indicates these to be made of gold

[Tanto54]

One of my favorite gold menuki (not mine, posted from Fred Weissberg of nihonto.com with his permission).  "Solid" gold covered with a thin overlay and then carved through with a poem and mist (e.g., poem cards - Uta Garuta).  Very elegant in my opinion.

 

 

[jlawson]

A little late to the topic but here are some of the favorites from my collection. Signed and papered to ToshiYoshi, Tanaka school. 

 

 

[Pete Klein]

Hi Peter -- I agree -- look like gold with kin sabi and the carving looks to be very good good.  Here it is rotated to see the mon better:

 

[Curran]

Peter & Pete:

http://page17.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v432097050

 

Not 100% the same. Scroll through the photos. Some evidence along the menuki edge that they are heavy gold foil over a base. Otherwise I would have thought them (almost)-solid gold.

 

Maximilian:

   That is the kozuka off their site that I liked.

I was not familiar with the artist, and looked him up. The Haynes entry is extensive enough to mention an example with a Kao, as yours has- but Haynes did not record it.

 

 

Some people showing some nice stuff. I'd not seen James' Tanaka set before, and I remember those interesting poem menuki that George posted. I always wondered what the original koshirae for them was like.

[Pete Klein]

Curran -- neither of us said 'solid' gold... (lol)!

[Ed]

Checked back in on this post, glad I did.  Those floral Tanaka menuki are gorgeous.

 

Peter, I think it difficult to make a call on your menuki based only on one photo.  The carving looks very good, and I would like to think gold, but couldn't be sure.  

 

In regards to the kin-sabi, I have been told that it can be manipulated and not an absolute indicator of solid(or there about) gold.  I am not stating that as fact, but food for thought. Ford perhaps could share some insight into that, if he will.

 

Perhaps you could take some close ups or macro photos of the menuki from varying angles for a better perspective.

[Ford Hallam]

Kin sabi (gold rust) has long been belived to be an indicator of age on things like menuki. However this is not the whole story. The effect is in fact an artificial one and quite easily applied. The process is explained in 'The Craft of the Japanese Sword' as used by habaki-shi Hiroshi Miyajima.

 

It's described as restoring the original pure gold colour to the gold alloy being used. And while the ingredients do leach out the non-gold elements from the surface, thereby creating an enriched skin, it also leaves behind traces of copper salts. It's these copper salts that we recognise as 'gold rust'.  Other recipes omit the copper so will enrich the gold surface without leaving that red tinge.

 

The mixtures typically contain things like salt, saltpetre, ammonium chloride, frankincense and copper sulphate.

 

I think the important thing to remember is that gold is rarely used in its pure state, particularly when the whole object is to be gold. Generally speaking Japanese craftsmen alloyed their gold only with silver. Copper addditions are rare and when present very small. It would appear, from analyses, that gold coinage was often simply re-melted for use in studios.  The debasement of the gold coinage was a feature of Edo period economics. Any amount of silver might then further added to create more alloy to work with. The appearance of a richer gold would then be recreated once the piece was finished. This surface enrichment, being quite superficial, wears away over time. This is why we see many gold menuki that are quite pale. It's unlikely they left the shop looking that insipid 'back in the day'. There is also class of gold alloy called ao-kin (green gold), with up to about 20% silver added, these have a distinct lime yellow tone which you will have seen in contrast to pure gold on pieces with fine inlay work. Where menuki appear more pale than ao-kin it follows that more tahn 20% silver is in the alloy. It can be as high as 40 or even 50% and still be treated to look like pure gold on the outside.

 

Gold and silver was also bought from official Shogunate appointed guilds, called Za in Japanese. Gold from the Kinza, which was run by the Goto and silver from the Ginza. And yes, that Ginza was in Ginza in Tokyo. :-) These guilds were first established by Hideyoshi and continued by Ieyasu.

[ROKUJURO]

Ford,

as usual your comments are very informative and enlightening. Thank you! 

[Ford Hallam]

Thank you Jean    it's nice to know my input and time is appreciated by some.

[Stephen]

We all love you Ford, and those that dont, we'll they can bugger off!...lol

[Pete Klein]

[Brian]

Hey...I consider Ford a friend...and I don't love him. In fact, he scares the #$%# out of me.

But he knows his stuff, and I respect him for that. I love sushi. I respect Ford.

[Ford Hallam]

Steady on chaps, I don't even love me   but I appreciate the sentiment.

[Curran]

Thank you Ford. I e-copied that and also hardcopied it to a reference I use.

 

What is your opinion of the gold content of Ko-Mino menuki? I have a set that is very bright and 'soft'. Are the pre-Momoyama ones coin gold too?

Coloration is different from Edo period menuki of red gold, pale gold, and yellow gold sets I have.

I've attached a picture of one, with apologies that I don't have better pictures. Sunlight is making it look a bit more orange.

 

This image appears about twice actual size on my screens.

Actual size is very very small at probably just over 2cm in length.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Curran , glad to be able to add something of use.

 

In my opinion Ko-Mino work can often be of very good quality. Both in terms of workmanship and materials. After all, who taught Goto Yujo his 'Mad Skillz'?

 

At present there really is a darth of hard data in terms of metal and alloy analyses so it's hard to be certain about the gold caratage they might have used. Having said that my impression is that it tends to look like 18 to 20ct. That's 75% ~ 83% gold content.

Pure gold would simply be far too soft I think. And as you noted they didn't seem to fiddle with the surface colour.

 

I think that coinage is very likely to have been the source of the gold at this time also.