What Is Happening To Nihonto Message Board?

[Nihonto Chicken]

Just to add in my two cents, I regularly visit, and even respond to (less as days go by), a number of disparate special interest forums.  Nihonto, firearms, fountain pens, motorcycles, silver, whatever.  Specific forums generally develop a unique temperament, usually according to the moderators and greybeards.  My main fountain pen forum is very tightass (wouldn't dare use this term there), it's generally quewed to verbage at best that wouldn't upset the father of a budding thirteen year old female, and it tends to harshly proscribe anything beyond that level.  Then again, my local state firearms forum regularly features off-topic posts regarding non-PC topics such as comely females, with freewheeling comments as to their attributes, desireability and imagined intentions of the poster.  It's a younger crowd, though, and there are other firearems forums I frequent that are much more conservative, such as the shotgun forum that is quite restrained, not quite as purely pristine as the fountain pen forum, but quite a long way from the aforementioned local general gun forum.  The collectible silver forum is pure as the driven snow, politics and sex simply don't exist, and people just don't tend to "get into it" as typical of many other venues. 

 

With that wind up, let me say that this forum is rather tough for newbies.  Yeah, there are a lot of "gimme the translation" for eBay buyers/sellers who just want to turn a buck, okay, screw 'em.  Then for the less mercenary, perhaps only one out of ten will be sparked by an informative response here to start climbing the rather steep nihonto learning tree.  C'mon people, it is damn near vertical at the base with sparse toeholds, and not in anyway rewarding until many feet up (hopefully not after pissing away many dollars after Chinese/Indian crappers and battered and butchered Bungos).  I myself only got so far, after Connoisseur I was faced with buying Fujishiro and its translations, and instead backed off at that point (more due to a lack of funds than interest, not funds for the books, but funds for market value blades after that, been kinda a tight decade).  BTW, I may not be a longer term member of this forum, but I date back to the old Robert (not Bob!!!) Cole forum and the succeeding Yahoo forum.  Took me a while to find this forum after the Yahoo site ran out of gas. 

 

From time to time, I come across a post on a firearm forum from someone who's come into the possession of a nihonto and wants enlightenment.  I generally refer to this forum, but with the stern admonishment to not request an estimation of value, and also to generally tread lightly and appear as obsequious as possible.  It's a tough forum, folks.  I don't expect the moderators and greybeards to agree with this assessment.  That's their view from where they sit.  From a newbie outlook, it's a tough forum.  Trust me.

[Guido]

if we have toothache we go to a dentist we dont learn dentistry, when the car breaks down most people go to a mechanic,sick a doctor, if we want a meal we go out for dinner we dont go to cooking school,if we go to a museum we can ask questions and the staff answer,they dont say go and study.

i think sometimes we should take ourselves less seriously and just help.

 

The big difference is: you pay the dentist, you pay the restaurant, you pay the museum to provide said services. Try going to a restaurant and ask for a free meal because, well, they should take themselves less serious, and just cook the damn stuff because you are too lazy to do it yourself. Or imagnine the dentist treating you for free, and you get upset because he recommends to you brushing your teeth twice a day, calling him an elitist.

 

But I'm not surprised some people come here and ask for free & instant gratification - I'm surprised that there are still enough people who are willing to provide answers despite that attitude.

[Ask]

Above, the British museum is one of the finest in the world and its totally FREE.

As is the dentist and doctor well almost.

It has nothing to do with paying, you missed the point as i expected someone to.

The point was that information and help should be free, let me try somewhere else, ok when you go to a tourist information desk they help FREE!

This is a forum we should be Happy people come and ask, it would be pretty shiit if no one but you experts came. There wouldn't be half the posts there are, thats for sure.

Then again its people with your attitude and belief that make new people feel the way they do.

Let me just ask you (above), Have you ever asked for help and if yes did you get charged every time.

Sorry one more thing, get over yourself.

[DirkO]

Although the British museum and Tourist info desk are free - someone is paying for them. It's a free service for you, but in the background they get paid to provide whatever service they give out.

Yes, this forum should be welcoming to new people, and it is. But not for the people who want to turn a quick profit. It's a free forum, and that being said, it's a "take it or leave it" approach. If people don't like the advice given here, or the tone of the replies, they can always try elsewhere.
However they would be hard pressed to find the info provided here. Seeing it's a free forum, it comes with a free 'attitude' as well. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

PS: Guido probably forgot more about nihonto than I will ever know - we should be thankfull for any help he provides. Because the real specialists are very scarce on this forum, and anyone willing to share their knowledge should be applauded and not commented upon because the tone of the reply wasn't to their liking.

[paulb]

Can I suggest people step back a little and take some deep breaths?

I have great sympathy for Guido's point of view. As Dirk says he has forgotten more than I know and has always been extremely helpful when ever I have asked for help. BTW I am very biased because over the years I have come to regard him along with several other very knowledable people here as very good friends.

Also as a 40 year+ tax payer in the UK I can absolutley confirm that Hospital, dentists and museums are far from free. Free at the point of delivery yes but paid for none the less.

Unfortunately we have had several spates of the "Whats it worth" brigade hitting the board with some story of family heirloom asking advice then posting th item on ebay as soon as they have found out what they needed. dishonesting regarding motives is gauranteed to hack people off.

Some of the same get into heated debates with those who give information if it fails to live up to their expectation.

In the vast majority of cases if help is asked for it is given. Sometimes the news may not be what was wanted but that is also a fact of life.

I can understand why those who have committed so much time and effort in to this subject do on occassion feel abused and taken advantage of. However it doesnt stopthem continuing to help. There is a strong commitment here to promote, educate and where possible enlighten. Those of us who take advantage of that should not lose sight of the value we are receiving.

[Pete Klein]

Keyser Söze

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here are few small thoughts from a novice.

 

As for creating conversation, that is a tricky topic. Sometimes the good discussion requires high level of knowledge and unfortunately I know I'm not yet at that level. Take for example that extremely informative topic created by Ford about Shibuichi restoration. To take part and actually saying something with real insight on a topic like that takes high level of knowledge, that is why it's bit difficult to get a very active discussion going. For example in that topic I could only give my thanks to Ford about posting it. I don't know much about tosogu or shibuichi but I learned a thing or two from that topic.

 

One thing that is often feared is asking stupid questions or giving incorrect answers. As this is a place with high level knowledge then people are sometimes hesistant to post maybe even some good questions which would create good discussion. I know books are always recommended and books are amazing I can say this as a book collector but there is a but. I have sometimes thought if it would be more beneficial to ask a question here out loud rather than just jump into my books and search the information for myself? I think questions are often needed to spark some discussion. I know as I've been trying to create some public discussion in Finnish language about nihonto, it's very difficult if nobody says anything and you are just writing stuff. What kind of information people will like to know? This is a hobby for very small group of people so it's understandable that this is not a messageboard where a message comes in every minute. I think NMB is quite active message board given how specialized our subject in here is.

 

I think at the moment various sword forums NMB, SBG, MyArmoury, SFI etc. are working well alongside various social media platforms Facebook, Reddit, Twitter etc. There is lots of activity going between one and another. I tend to hang quite a bit at SBG where various production swords are the main subject, as I feel that I can offer more help and knowledge in there if people are interested in Japanese swords. As unfortunate it is I know that at my current level of knowledge I can't create that much high level discussion in here. Hopefully those from various forums who have serious interest will then join our ranks in here. I know several have joined so it's a good thing. Gabriel is helping people out at Reddit, and lots of folks at various forums know about NMB and will recommend this place for Japanese sword study.

 

NMB members are really helpful bunch, and this is in my opinion very friendly forum. I think the quick identifications, translation assistances, price asking etc. are somewhat going on in many forums. I've gotten used to it so I don't really mind it. It takes so much time to gather knowledge about swords & weapons to make a good guess how old your Japanese sword, Arabian dagger or European polearm is. And you can most likely get an answer from people who are specialized in that field if you ask the question in here for example. I can understand it very well, I've asked few translation requests too on another forums as I cannot for example understand Arabic. Of course as Japanese swords are so often signed then it is easy to seek translation assistance, and I think that many think that it must be really valuable as it is a Japanese sword.

[Ask]

If you read my post i have nothing but praise and thanks for the people on here and the help I've received.

And the stuff about help desks being paid is semantics, my point was merely if we give advice and someone sells something is it such a huge thing, is it life changing or threatening ?

Theres so much crap going on around the world and in our lives, is some sword info so important ?

I recently met gassan sadatoshi at his forge and spent half an hour with him, his son and his deshi i asked questions and they answered and it was free, they also said come back.

A few months ago i met kunihira kawachi and his wife and deshi and it was the same.

If i offended it was never my intention, its just my opinion and im allowed that. I just think sometimes we need to lighten up.

[paulb]

unfortunately when writing posts we can all be guilty of sounding more confrontational than intended, this also has to do with enthusiasm. I contiunally look at things I have written and wince when rereading them. I am passionate about the subject and it some times comes across as aggression. It isnt.

John if you look at your previous post and read it at face value I think that could also appear that way.

I am delighted and envious that you had the opportunity to meet and talk to artists in Japan I am sure it was a very fulfilling experience. I am equally sure they are fine and generous people however I dont doubt that in their minds you also represented a potential future customer (if not an existing one) so they viewed their time well spent in developing a relationship.

You are absolutley right the world is currently a miserable place and I dread watching the news these days to see what level of inhumanity we have slipped to next. There are far more important things to deal with than how we should cope with questions on the board. However while we are here it seems reasonable to try and work within a framework that suits all, or at least the majority.

[kusunokimasahige]

Here are my three Masamune swords.

I spent 20K on them and it took 15 years before I had the collection complete.

and then some elitist collector self proclaimed expert tells me he thinks they are letter openers ?

Geez while he only has seen a real example of Masamune's work in some old Museum in Tokyo and read a few books !
And has the audacity to talk me down on some high-up forum called the NMB ? How rude !

 

 

[Stephen]

HI-jinks your birthday is over go to your room...

[kusunokimasahige]

@ Stephen.... Must have been the Kretek cigarette I have just been smoking..... I am on a clove high..... After Choji oiling my swords smoking Indonesian Kretek clove cigarettes does that, you know

[Brian]

John,

Once you get to know Guido, you'll know that he can make a "Happy Birthday!" sound confrontational

But he is like me, no bull...just straight to the blunt point (in RL anyways, maybe I'm not always like this here)

And he has the knowledge to back it up. I don't think anything was meant as a personal attack, but giving the facts ma'am!

It is hard for experts to stay on a forum. They give a lot, and there is very little they can gain. That's why so many come and go. It isn't easy giving the same advise over and over again to new faces every week. And especially seeing so many of them ignore it, or go with the easier option given by someone with 3 weeks in this hobby.

Kudos to those that do stick around. Something to do with leaving a legacy maybe. Making a difference. Everyone should really remember that online, everyone sounds critical in your own head

[Stephen]

You all know me as a man of few words, no short essays here.

 

Ive been in various Yahoo groups the older ones and few not so very known ones, SFI which at one time had many of our members posting good info as well, I dont go there any more too many Ninja watabies, Which im glad to say one reason NMB rules we usually dispatch them post haste. Gone thru all the growth of NMB, started with RS then RT and the various watabie forms copying us. 

Unequivocally NIHONTO MESSAGE BOARD remains supreme, Thanks to Brian and to our learned scholars, soggy old professors, up and coming students, (who i must add just a few short years ago knew almost nada on subject) weekend warriors, lurkers, all around old fart who would rather give a smile than wrong info,(leave that to members who know what there talking about) and YOU whos reading this now. Your why NMB is long from dead.

 

 

PS

My pet peeve? Dealers, some respected, the ones that only post in for sale and never give any opinions other than what they would profit from. 

OK back to my hole in the wall.

[SAS]

Who knew Masamune was an innovator in stainless steel?!

[Kronos]

As a newbie who stuck around we do exist and I feel the learned members of this forum have helped me immeasurably and the pushing to do my own research means that I don't struggle quite as much reading kanji etc

[peterd]

Hi Guys

 

I have had some painful experiences with the experts.  Not because they were rude, not because they were wrong, but because they were right.

Hurts to know something you thought was good was at best average. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question.

 

Keep up the great work especially the experts, we all need you on the NMB.

 

PS

Remember one day your collection will be with someone else, hopefully someone with some knowledge, maybe gained partly from the NMB.

 

Pete

[Pete Klein]

Something I've learned from dealing with the Japanese is that no answer quite often is an answer.  If you inadvertently ask a question which they feel uncomfortable answering there's either no answer or a very beat around the bush one.  When you ask what we think of your latest purchase and there is no answer don't get bent.  Look first to see how many hits the post has had and if you see a few dozen with no answer you've just gotten your answer.  You can always re-phrase the question of course, or you can ask one of the moderators what gives and they can help out. 

 

PS:  I'm quite experienced at volunteering other's labor.  (lol)

[LakeBum]

You guys have been patient with my questions for four years, and even in person at shows.  I live in the middle of no where IL and gladly make the treck to the show of shows and chicago (plus go through about 4 or 5 books a year lol).  I do not always fully understand what I read or what you guys try to teach but that is just the learning process.  These are some deep waters. 

[nihonto1001]

Something I've learned from dealing with the Japanese is that no answer quite often is an answer.

Excellent point. Another aspect of this point is that, as responders, we are Free to answer the question, or ignore it. So, this information is Free. However, payment does come in the form of the satisfaction you get in helping others and building interest in Nihonto. This is good for building the market, which ultimately benefits those of us whom are heavily invested in it.

 

This forum definitely bolstered my interest in Nihonto, maybe too much.lol

[Kanenaga]

Hello All,

 

Lurker here.  I’ve been visiting NMB intermittently for several years, never posted because had nothing to contribute. But this is an interesting thread, thanks to the OP for raising it, it gets to the core of what is this Board for?  Of course, the answer rests ultimately with the Admin, to whom we are all immensely grateful for the time and effort he donates to this enterprise. 

 

I have a friend who is a 20+ year experienced collector and student of Japanese swords, who never looks at NMB. He says “There’s nothing there for me.”  To my way of thinking that’s a problem – partly with him, but also for this Board. 

 

I notice also that some high-end dealers used to periodically post special items, either as kantei or just for interest, but rarely do so now.  Yes, those items were usually for sale, but hey – everything is for sale at DTI, and it’s the best learning experience in the world IMHO. 

 

This thread has devolved into a debate on the merits of providing free advice to newbies, but my interpretation of Peter’s OP (correct me if I'm mistaken) was a plea for more advanced discussion – not exclusive elitism, just more –  and I for one would support that.  I’m not exactly sure how to orchestrate that, but one suggestion might be to ask the greybeards to present a periodic question or topic – perhaps in some kind of rotation – that might stimulate meaningful discussion, or even a little (gentlepersonly) controversy.  The goal as I see it is to retain the interest of the advanced collectors while servicing the needs of the newcomers.

 

Anyway, my two yen. Before I lapse back into lurker status, let me quote one of my dear departed nihontophile friends with a piece of advice that has helped me time and again over the years:  This is a hobby, it’s supposed to be fun!

 

Les

[Brian]

Politics. That's what it comes down to. When you are in my position, and are privy to stories about dealers and collectors from both sides of the fence, so to speak....you quickly realize how much personal "politics" goes on behind the scenes. This guy was cheated by that guy, this guy hates that guy, that guy refuses to speak to that guy, this guy ruins tsuba, that guy ruins swords, this guy has a vested interest in that organization, that guy only posts if he is pushing his sales items. Etc etc etc etc etc.

So very often, I am in the middle of politics, and I refuse to bow to pressure, or change the way we work because of said politics. So quite often, people will choose to leave because of personal reasons and "politics" in the Nihonto community. So be it.

I could write a book about all the stories I have been told, and the whole soap opera behind the scenes. So sometimes we lose advanced collectors here because of that, and there isn't much I can do about it. If someone has ideas that would bring these people back, or encourage more advanced collectors and dealers to participate..I am all ears.

[Peter Bleed]

Brian,

I am not sure what will bring "advanced collectors" back, but I sincerely hope that you will post all and every story you have heard about ME. If you make that post, I will add all the images (properly edited, tsk, tsk).

I must also say that the contretemps of sword collecting seem to be a part of the topic. Nothing I've seen on NMB compares with serious parts of Sword Society politics. Relax, friends, this is what we do and call a "hobby." It was that got me writing my novel. Mebbe it is time for another.

Peter

[Greg F]

Hello all

I find this thread has been quite a positive discussion after all and would like to say that I appreciate each person here and hope I can show that any time I write something in the future. Thank you to you all and its true that it is a hobbie and is meant to be fun. To the more experienced contributers here please keep inspiring us less experienced members. Its you guys that help prevent others from damaging or destroying blades and passing on your knowledge is what keeps Nihonto going! The more we learn the more we realize that there is so much more to learn, i think that goes for everyone at all stages of life. Thanks.

Greg

[Curran]

Brian's two posts captured the bulk of my opinion.

 

It does get tiring answering the same question for the 500th time, so you decide to let someone else do it- and it becomes a habit.

Also, no matter how hard you try to be Switzerland, eventually you develop your own Politics.

      Brian has done extremely well at transcending the Politics and shown repeated wisdom for someone the same age as me. I would have used the Death Ray of Deletion a bit more capriciously.

I should never be a Moderator.

[Gasam]

Hi all,

 

I have learned everything I know from discussions on this board, books bought from recommendations on this board and so on. I find it very inclusive, at least on the occations I have posted a question or two.

 

Sometimes the question of nihonto collectors/collecting is "elitist" or not comes up. This reminds me of a small anecdote from my recent life. I apologize in advance for the semi-long and perhaps slightly off topic read, but it is quite stunning, at least I thought so:

 

So:

 

Not having a Sword Club in my country even, that I am aware of, I thought in my ignorance that I would enlist as a member in the Norwegian Society of Weapons-History. They collect weapons, banners, uniforms and all kind of militaria.

 

Perhaps, I thought, they will have at least one or two members that have some interest in oriental edged weapons in general or nihonto particularly. Then we could meet and discuss/display on at least some occations these weapons.

 

Certainly, Im up for show and tell of my humble collection. I could teach someone a little, and learn a lot, I thought.

 

Fine, off to their web pages to apply for membership then.

 

not....so...easy....

 

Turns out you have to have an invitation from someone (who will be your Guardian) to join... once invited, you have to purchase (for an undisclosed amount) a "guest sign" from the Club Maester, and secure two Patrons in addition to the Guardian.

 

Then can begin the trial membership of 12 months, where at least 6 obligatory meetings must have been attended. The purpose of the trial period is to find out if the Society and yourself has any "mutual benefits" of you joining.

 

After 12 months, you can receive a membership application form from the Club Secretary. The application must include your own statement about your general conduct in life, your interests, and your willingness to take on positions in the Society.

 

Your guardians must also attest on your application that you are indeed, in their eyes, Society material.

 

Then comes the 12 month period where your application is beeing considered by a comittee. A comittee whos ruling on your membership application is final, and no reasons for approval or dismissal is to be given.

 

Nice one then! Now these guys know their elitism!

 

Needless to say I will never sink so low as to apply for membership of the Society.

 

Im to elitist for that :-)

[Michel D]

Hello everyone,

 

My two cents-comment. First of all, this forum is a gold pit but... where to dig in? Just spend one or two months  without reading it and you will discover the amount of interesting information you have missed. This is all the more true for beginners. May be, as already suggested by Greg, a newbies' section could be opened with some basic advice (chineses fakes, fatal flaws,amateurish polishing, basic glossary and some references books: well, anything that could have made you avoid the mistakes you did or anything that could have helped you when you began). Actually, all that stuff is well documented in the NMB but not necessary of easy access for a beginner.

I was for a while a moderator/administrator on another nihonto forum. There were of course many questions from beginners (let's say I was a little less beginner than them ). When I tried to answer, I often had to carry out further researches, including in NMB, to provide a good or acceptable answer. Doing this made me improve my own knowledge. Doing so, a win-win situation is possible

I recently met a very newby who had bought two swords on ebay. I did not see the swords but following our discussion, I advised him to suscribe to the NMB. Hope he listened to...

I seldom post but have learned a lot on this forum and wish I went on

[Alex A]

The NMB used to be the place to go to discuss serious issues about Japanese swords. You could come here everyday and find expert insights from really advanced students of this thing we do and call sword appreciation.Where are  the gentlemen who used to show up here, sharing deep understanding as well as charm and wit.

Now, by contrast, we have become the go to place for naive questions  from people who are too lazy to go to a library and  too cheap to buy a book, but fully willing to demand attention. They can even be argumentative if they don't like the free expertise they are getting.

Can NMB be saved?

Peter

Hello Peter.

 

Like it or not, some of the folk asking naive questions are the future collectors/enthusiasts, i dont think they are lazy or cheap, just clueless. I get the impression most folk like to give out their knowledge/expertise, sometimes cant get over how fast that expertise arrives (whether good or honest), by the time ive reached for a book there is usually an answer already   

 

I know some of you guys have been studying/collecting for many years and been through the golden age of collecting, when good swords could be picked up for next to nothing. All those conversations over the years that you Gents have been having online about this and that are all here for us to view and read, is it not possible there is nothing left to talk about?  

 

Seriously, like others, this is a great place to learn should you wish to learn, the true aficionados will stick around, even if they dont always log in to see whats going on in the the izakaya!. (ahoy there Chris )