What Is Happening To Nihonto Message Board?

[Peter Bleed]

The NMB used to be the place to go to discuss serious issues about Japanese swords. You could come here everyday and find expert insights from really advanced students of this thing we do and call sword appreciation.Where are  the gentlemen who used to show up here, sharing deep understanding as well as charm and wit.

Now, by contrast, we have become the go to place for naive questions  from people who are too lazy to go to a library and  too cheap to buy a book, but fully willing to demand attention. They can even be argumentative if they don't like the free expertise they are getting.

Can NMB be saved?

Peter

 

[kusunokimasahige]

Wondering what you mean....

I see the old guard still discussing swords an art and helping people as well as teach novices and where necessary scold them gently.

So what happened Peter?

[SteveM]

I've just returned to the board after a 6-year absence. I haven't lost interest, but my interest has been pushed to the background by other things in life, as happens. My swords languished in my closet for the past few years. I just took them out recently to make sure they were still in good shape, and really struggled to get them out of the shirasaya so I could clean and re-oil them.

 

I originally joined when the board was run by Rich (going back maybe 10 years) and it is nice to see the very high standard that Brian has maintained all these years. (Just found the videos by Ford Hallam... breathtaking). I think its good to welcome a lot of new enthusiasts to the world of Nihonto. It tends to be a very small, exclusive club, with a very high barrier to entry. Everything conspires against the newbie: the language, the price, the availability, the vast amount of crappy items or forgeries out there... so difficult for beginning students/enthusiasts to get reliable information. So, I say welcome newbies even they come with questions that can be answered by wikipedia-sensei. Very pleased to see the board in great shape and has so many high-level contributors. 

[Greg F]

Steve your reply says it all, Bravo. Not everyo e has the funds, time or education that others have but as long as they have preserving Nihonto as a priority they should be welcomed. A smart fella on this board said maybe there should be a forum for the elitist that doesnt want to deal with people they feel are below them. Personaly i couldnt be happier with this place and the help i receive while occasionally putting up with negativity.

Greg

[paulb]

Greg

I don't doubt unitentionally but you have hit about every raw nerve I have regarding the board. Like Peter I have been here since God was a boy, even before Rich Turner took over from Rick Stein. We have debated this time and time again and there is no doubt that the character of the board is changing as more people dip their toe in and try and understand the subject. You just look at the range of the content to see that a much higher proportion of the board is taken up by discussions on military swords and Gendaito. it also has its share of people who have become used to the instant gratification of asking on the board rather than attempting to find out through study.

The problem is that study and research takes time and effort and therefore the proportion of detailed work appearing here is bound to be less than the questions about a latest ebay purchase.

What seriously hacks me off (please substitute a strong expletive, I thought it would censored if I wrote it) Is the comments such as dont have the money, time and education as being a limit to studying a subject. Also labelling someone who puts such effort in as "Elitist" as though they had some social desease is equally galling. Some facts:

1. I dont think any of the serious students who contribute here and spend large chunks of their lives studing this subject would be considered wealthy, or of unlimited funds, they make choices as to what they spend their money on and work with what they have. Jean has just posted inmages of his collecion that is the result of 40 years effort not unlimited funds.

 

2. Time. Everyone I know who contributes research here has other calls on their time, they make the time available to do the work it is again choice.

 

3. Education- Read the biography of one of the most learned people who writes here, Paul Martin, He started life as either an electrician or security guard (I forget which it was) in the British Museum to give himself the chance to study a subject he loved. He worked his way to becoming an assistant curator and to the point now where he is a go to authority. This was because he was passionate and made the effort.

This idea of creating an Elitist section where all the rich elitists can communicate without having to deal with the run of the mill never originates from those who put effort in and make commitment. If this were to happen who will be there to answer the questions? or do we just spend our time talking up the latest Ebay showa-to national treasure we bought from Ebay. (at least that way we are unlikely to learn the truth and can live in our fantasy world.)

 

Sorry for the rant but it is a concern that we are slipping away from serious study and discussion and focussing increasingly on lower end pieces. We all start there, Most of us have to, but if we dont put the effort in to study more and develop collections that is where we will stay. For some that may suit for others not, the important thing is that each is able to reach their own potential and target and those that choose not to put that effort in should not deride those who do or belittle their effort with the mistaken belief it is because they had more money, leasure time or education than those who have chosen not to.

 

 

Sorry for the rant, but this ongoing belief that buying and studying good blades is a result of having limitless funds and time belittles the considerable effort that many ordinary people put in to this subject.

[Brian]

If I had to censor a word here, it would be "elitist"

Lots of people have left various online forums and activities due to being labelled elitist. No such thing here. Doing things the proper way, having the required respect, and not compromising the way things are supposed to be done is not elitist. It is just what some are prepared to do, to maintain the high levels this subject requires.

I'm not going to go into that further, it has been covered in depth. Many of the long (longest) time members here don't have big collection, major works in their collections, or sometimes barely enough to cover monthly expenses. I could name them, but they know who they are (myself included) but still stick around giving advice and showing the proper way to do things.

I suppose the elitists are the ones who, I have been told, regard forums as beneath them, and online study as a waste of time. They find the effort of educating others to be too taxing and the fact that people don't bow down before them to be disturbing. We don't have them here. Some have made brief appearances and then found it too much effort. Others want things their way or no way.

The fact is that people come and go. Some take 1 month and some take 10 years. Show me an online forum with most of the founding members 10 years later?

Peter, NMB doesn't need to be saved. As long as there are those with some knowledge to pass on, who are prepared to stick around and persevere, it will save itself.

It is frustrating, I know. Beginners pop in, last a few months, and then move on. But a few stick around. Some of them will still be here in 5 years as dedicated collectors.

It is hard...trust me I know. But to ask if this can be saved just requires me to ask one question: "I don't know....are you prepared to help save it?"

[Henry Wilson]

applause. Nicely put Brian. Thanks for all the hard work as always!!

[Greg F]

Sorry to hit a nerve. Maybe elitist isnt the best choice of words but it would be great if newbies could feel welcome with questions. I was a homeless street kid years ago and always dreamed of being involved in Nihonto at some level, now i run a boxing gym and dedicate most my time to helping kids and people better their situation for little financial reward and most of my precious spare time and money is towards learning about nihonto. So hopefully when im as experienced and as educated in Nihonto as much as some of the longer running members here that made me feel welcome and helped put me in the right direction I can help newbies the way ive been helped here or by people that ive met here. Anyway now im ranting too.

Greg

[kissakai]

Hi

Everyone had to start somewhere even the most eminent contributors started knowing nothing. My personal opinion is some of the best had a mentor who would have chastised their student(s) for there naivety but then put them on the right path. I bet some of these experts have great stories of their ignorance!

 

I have posted a few ‘naive questions’ that have taught me a lot. One of my recent posts asked about a tsubas  harness. Although some books talk about hardness I didn’t understand the term until the replies I had from the NMB. Show me the book where hardness is explained?

I was taken aback in my early NMB days when my items were pilloried but not now. Later on I found that if someone unfairly criticised my item another NMB would offer a counter view – balance is restored

 

Maybe Brian could have a section for ‘really advanced students’ and one for newbie’s?

It will not happen as the NMB is a portal to exchange, share and inform its members irrespective of there expertise

 

Normally every post is seeking an response and every member of the NMB has the choice whether they do or don’t reply.  Sounds good to me

 

Evolution

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

 

 

Grev UK

 

[IanB]

Brian, I think almost everyone on this board would agree with what you have written. I for one have nothing but admiration for all the effort you have put into it -  long may you continue to do so.

 

Greg, Your second sentence sums up exactly the attitude this board must continue to adopt. We all have to start somewhere and yes, sometimes the questions may seem banal and the answer could be found with the minimum of effort, but the questioner may well not know how trivial their question is or how easily it can be found. The whole field of Japanese arms and armour is an encoded cypher concealed in a maze of sometimes inconsistent terminology. I admit I still have to turn to glossaries from time to time to to figure out what someone has written. To most beginners such reference material isn't available so let us continue to offer a guiding hand and enable them to make a start to help themselves..

Ian Bottomley

[tony edmunds]

In my humble opinion , the Board has done as much to foster genuine interest and indeed commitment to the study of Nihonto as any other entity,and its most valuable asset is its accessibility.

The various Token societies support and nurture those members who can assess their support (in person or on line) but they are

by and large, National or even local organisations. The Board is international and that's what makes it uniquely valuable.

 

With regards to the questions of novices, I always told my students , "don't worry there is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer"

[Jean]

Peter,

 

Everyone has to begin one day. I have along the years on NMB exchanged hundreds of PM or e-mails with beginners explaining the whys, giving advices, spending hours to discuss blades and talk about quality. I can't remember seeing a member looking with contempt to newbies even when they take us for old farts, mentionning their so inheritated from Grand Pa Japanese swords which are on sale on yahoo Japan or yesterday made Chinese fakes

 

I had no mentor and have been for years a LoL (learner on line), I have struggled and read what books I could grap, then came the web and the possibility to enlarge and satisfy my learning thirst. Then I began to exchange e-mails with very knowlegeable people and learn a lot. But I had an advantage, I was genuinely interested in Nihonto. People who want to learn will always find a way. Not later than a week ago, I had a newbie who PM me asking what to read, what I thought of such swords and we have been discussing like this for a while.

[peterd]

Hi Gents

 

I first bought a sword about 10+ years ago. It turned out to be Showato of

poor quality.

 

My second sword was of good quality from Ninhonto.com.

At the time i wasn't interested in books i just wanted a Japanese sword as i knew these were the best.

 

Then in 2011 i discovered the NMB which rekindled my interest for all things Ninhonto.

I bought a couple of cheap books but was reluctant to spend more on a book than i did on my first Tsuba. It seemed madness to spend that much money on a book.

 

Slowly through NMB i learned a little more and the more i read the more i wanted to learn, so i started buying better books.

Without the help and knowledge of the NMB my interest would have wained and i would have probably given up.

 

Please don't give up on us novices although we can be irritating, your persistence makes for some becoming very knowledgable.

I personally have learn't as much from you guys as i have from my books. I hope one day in 10 to 20 years not to consider myself a novice.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

Pete 

[Rich S]

Brian and all -

 

As the "grandfather :-)" of NMB, all I can say is that Rich Turner and Brian have turned it into THE site for learning/discussing Nihonto regardless of the posters level of knowledge. We need to teach the "newbies" (like me) or the study of Nihonto (at least in the West) will die with us. While I read most of the posts but post little; some (actually a lot) are way above my limited knowledge, so I am still learning and hope to continue to do so. Kudos and great thanks to Rich T and expecially Brian. The NMB is great and fine just the way it is. If it ain't broke; don't fix it. And yes, I consider myself still a "newbie"; after years of study I can finally say "that's a pretty sword or tsuba" or "that's most likely a Chinese fake or just a piece of animal dropping". Sorry to disagree with you Peter B, my old friend, but I think NMB is just fine.

Rich S

[paulb]

Pete

for what it is worth after 30 years of study I still regard myself as a novice. I think once you lose that perspective your ability to learn more decreases dramatically.

All we can do is share experience and offer opinion. There is no right or wrong way to determine what one should or shouldn't study or collect, it is a matter of personal preference and interest. What is important is that people respect others point of view and allow that it may not agree with theirs. This tolerance has to work both ways and I think in the main it does. This has been an incredible source and network for me for many years and I have met some of my best firends through discussion on this board. I have also learned a great deal through participation. Long may it continue!

Regards

Paul

[Mark]

I have no problem with newbies asking simple questions, we all start somewhere and if they really want to learn i want to encourage them. I find it frustrating when we are "used" by people just coming by to 1. get free information to use it for commercial gain, or 2. people who misrepresent what/why they are asking, and 3. those who use us as a free translation service with no effort expended themselves.

 

It would be considerate, or people would show good manners if:

 

1. Let us know up front why you want the info and what you are using it for. If it will be for sale let us know up front and maybe offer it to the board.

 

2. Be honest and up front, just seems the right thing to do

 

3. I ask for help with translations plenty of times, and i am happy to help where i can. But at least give it a try and let us know where you are confused. At times i try and help and give clear hints and lead the person to where they can at least get some info and come back, that way they learn.  And if you ask us to do something lengthy offer a small donation to the board, it shows you value what you are getting.

 

I try to support the board with comments and what little knowledge i have and send a donation from time to time and will continue, but i see Peters point, in the past it seemed there was more discussion back and forth, more learning, now it seems there is more "just give me what i want now".  Maybe that is a reflection of the times what with texting and social media vs. the old ways of talking and meeting etc.

[Stephen]

Right Mark

 

Unless your a student in school who goes to the library any more? Its at your finger tips, and in a few decades in a drink, or transfusion. Keep up the Good work Peter, you will be quoted in the Future. 

[Shamsy]

Give a man a fish, feed him for the day.

Teach the man to fish, feed him for life.

But the man must be hungry to learn.

[Curran]

The NMB used to be the place to go to discuss serious issues about Japanese swords. You could come here everyday and find expert insights from really advanced students of this thing we do and call sword appreciation.Where are  the gentlemen who used to show up here, sharing deep understanding as well as charm and wit.

Now, by contrast, we have become the go to place for naive questions  from people who are too lazy to go to a library and  too cheap to buy a book, but fully willing to demand attention. They can even be argumentative if they don't like the free expertise they are getting.

Can NMB be saved?

Peter

 

In those sections that I follow, there have been few interesting questions.

As Mark said, it has been much more "Give me what I want to know".

 

I had my breaking point.

[kusunokimasahige]

Curran. If you let the internet have ANY influence on your daily life you are looking at it the wrong way.

In a situation where you are at a sword show or meeting and someone acts rude I can imagine you have a " Breaking point"

On the internet however I cannot..

[Rich S]

Yes, there has been some "Give me what I want to know" and then never see the folks again. Sometimes I have referred people to the NMB for info. I "google" for various topic info that I want to know about. So at times NMB is the "google" for Nihonto. I see nothing wrong with that. I think folks here should be flattered that "newbies" and "I want to know" folks think highly enough of NMB to do that. Not everyone is a serious, life long Nihonto enthusiast. Sometimes people just need a question answered; so let's do that. Who knows some of them may just become Nihontophiles or we may just save a good sword from serious damage - good thing IMHO. More power to the NMB.

 

Got to go  now and watch the Italian Grand Prix. Formula 1 Grand Prix is real auto racing; not the demolition derby they call Nascar. I guess that makes me an elitist about auto racing :-)

Rich

 

Spoiler Alert :

Hamilton (Mercedes Team) won

[Peter Bleed]

         I am not sorry for asking about the state of the NMB even if it communicated an implied – an unintended – criticism of some regular contributors to Board discussion.  For that, I’m sorry.

        A part of the problem – explained by Curran – is that I get on the NMB by punching the “New Content” button. That means I get to see all the naïve demands for information and gratification. I’ll try to be more selective.

        Beyond that, however, I think the NMB has come to express a modern approach to sword collecting. Let me call it the “Google” approach.

      The people who contact the NMB for “translations” or “information” are expecting an “answer”. They may want assurances that they have not wasted their money or that their grandpa was a hero. But they also assume that somebody has the answer to their question. Some folks love answering question (I do), and so our visitors get answers. But there are two (2) problems with that approach.

1. It doesn’t encourage people to develop their own skills. (Yes, yes, we have seen the attempts to get “newbies” to figure things out – but does that ever work?)
2. More seriously, it encourages the belief that sword collecting is a bunch of revealed answers as opposed to a series of discovered questions.

    As Japanese sword collecting has become a mature field, it has moved in the google direction.  Whereas we used to have to figure things out, now we can “know” everything. (Would we be safe in assuming that any blade in Japan without papers is gimei or saiha?).  With all of the information, collectors can simply depend on expert opinion and established answers.

The challenge for the NMB is trading information that is sound but not limiting.

Peter

[Chango]

Y'all may be surprised to find out how may newbies have not just come, asked for something and taken off. As for myself I am sitting quietly "in the back", listening and learning and I cruise the forums often. I don't have much to say because the learning curve is high for this hobby and frankly I don't have much to add yet, but I really do enjoy listening and learning!

 

One thing is for sure, I wouldn't have a raging interest in (and newfound respect for) Nihonto several months later if some of you here didn't take a minute to translate the mei of my battered (but luckily authentic!) ebay purchase and given me some direction.

 

Now I'm reading new books on the subject almost monthly and formerly arcane and seemingly gibberish terms actually mean something. There's still a lot to learn and while lack of money still holds me back from adding to my collection of 1 sword, it won't always be that way. My heartfelt thanks for those of you who are willing to teach,share with and advise us newbies!

[Peter Bleed]

Jason

Please do not assume that I am anti new collectors. I have answered lots of questions, translated lots of signatures, published introductory pieces in places like that JSSUS-NL. I have also taught classes aimed at engaging a new generation in sword collecting.

https://www.facebook.com/ToNoKai?fref=ts

In any case, the point of my last post was to discuss  the role of categorical responses and simple answers.

It seems to me that what you should do is find a way to use the NMB to expand your learning. If you are reading stuff you certainly have discovered inconsistencies.  Questions about terminology would be great topic for you to bring to the NMB for discussion - maybe even clarification. Now is the time you should be active and involved. The Board should also help you find people who share your interest. Meeting real people and looking at real swords is the best way to develop your interest.

Peter

[nihonto1001]

I vote for the laissez faire theory.

 

Every hobby has its "Corporate Culture", so to speak.  Our hobby is perceived to be filled with a bunch of grumpy codgers; a tough crowd.  Nubes, are often alienated for asking "stupid" questions, the answers to which amount to someone else's more educated opinion.  That being said, I do not feel it is the job of the moderators to censor responses, or make us into gentlemen.  The best forums seem to be the ones with less moderation and more open communication, if not for the pure entertainment value.  If someone is an A-Hole, it is their problem, not the Nube who is asking a Nube question.  If that same person is an A-Hole too often, it becomes their reputation; and they reap the harvest they sew.

 

-My 2 cents.

[Chango]

Jason

Please do not assume that I am anti new collectors. I have answered lots of questions, translated lots of signatures, published introductory pieces in places like that JSSUS-NL. I have also taught classes aimed at engaging a new generation in sword collecting.

https://www.facebook.com/ToNoKai?fref=ts

In any case, the point of my last post was to discuss  the role of categorical responses and simple answers.

It seems to me that what you should do is find a way to use the NMB to expand your learning. If you are reading stuff you certainly have discovered inconsistencies.  Questions about terminology would be great topic for you to bring to the NMB for discussion - maybe even clarification. Now is the time you should be active and involved. The Board should also help you find people who share your interest. Meeting real people and looking at real swords is the best way to develop your interest.

Peter

 

Not doubting you Peter and you're right, there's no substitute to holding real swords with real experts next to you to learn from. Unfortunately for me there's no opportunities like that in my area (Salt Lake City) and I'm also suppporting a young family and short on $$$ for trips around the country to attend sword shows so I've gotta take what I can get. I hope that doesn't come off as lazyness... I'm just limited at this point in my life. Doesn't mean I will always be so limited or that I'm not gonna try though... but as someone with no ability to read Kanji, I would have still been at square one had nobody here translated my sword's mei for me.

 

I'm just greatful for the little jump-start I got, that's all... just getting a name to research opened the doors to A LOT of new information which I have been pursuing on my own.

[paulb]

Jason

I dont know if it helps but your situation is at least in part the same as mine 30+ years go. young family no money a relatively junior job and little or no contact (no internet) about the subject. The only available books were Basil Robinson and John Yumoto which I had to import.  All I had was an interest.

 

Hang in there use the resources now available and talk to people, weither in person or via technology. I have found it one of the most interesting and fulfilling things I have been involved with. I have learned a lot and met some very fine people. Hopefully along the way I have had the chance to help and encourage a few others as well.

It is well worth the effort.

[drbvac]

Maybe its the shortening days or people feeling a little down at summers passing but some of the comments are IMHO way to depressing in relation to this Forum which is world renowned and respected as the Nihonto board to go to. I will admit that some members have come on a seemed a little above us poor folks in the wilds and then eventually left but if you did a search of dates joined the board and last time on the forum they would spread over many years of many peoples lives.

 

Consideirng the work involved in maintenance and mentoring all those involved have been very free with their time to Newbies and oldmen - I have had lenghty private conversations with many and learned specifics that I could never have found in any written source as not much is in print for lesser appreciated smiths. I am sure if someone wanted to start a very intense study of some particular topic a well placed group e-mail would set off all kinds of responses that in many ways would be so far above the average members following that it really would not be that popular on the forum. 

 

There is something here for everyone. 

 

""Carry on Gang" - Hattie and Sid would be proud of you all

[Ask]

i understand fully, trying to encourage new people to learn or further their own knowledge but the fact is this, not everyone wants to do that.

Some people just want to go to a place and ask a few questions from people in the know and hopefully get a good answer and this is a place with many people in the know.

Not everyone is a serious nihonto collecter, sometime things just fall into our laps ( like me through work ) and i came here and asked some questions and got great helpful answers, sometimes it wasnt what i wanted or thought but i went away and rechecked the info and became satisfied.

A wiser man than me (Paul Martin) also once said that at times there can be some snobbery in collecting swords, particularly older koto nihonto. Im repeating myself but not everyone is a serious collector, Jeans collection is magnificent a lot of money and time but not everyone can do that. I have 3 tsuba 2 i found and 1 I bought and a few books but id still come here and ask a question and hope it would be answered.

Whats wrong with just wanting to ask a question you dont know the answer too?

If you ask yourselves that question, i bet that whenever you/ we all ask questions sometimes if we got told go and read a book or study a little, we would all get annoyed at some point.

if we have toothache we go to a dentist we dont learn dentistry, when the car breaks down most people go to a mechanic,sick a doctor, if we want a meal we go out for dinner we dont go to cooking school,if we go to a museum we can ask questions and the staff answer,they dont say go and study.

i think sometimes we should take ourselves less seriously and just help.

After all knowledge is nothing if not shared.

All that said i think this board is excellent and the people on are almost always courteous, keep up the good work and share the knowledge and the love.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

1. It doesn’t encourage people to develop their own skills. (Yes, yes, we have seen the attempts to get “newbies” to figure things out – but does that ever work?)

Yes, Peter, it does work. Not all the time, of course, but I could name at least three newbies who have become very serious collectors with help from NMB, & with whom it's now possible to carry on a well-informed conversation. Are they experts yet? No, but after several decades of sword-swinging & study, I'm not all that far from entry-level, myself.

 

I'm co-owner of another Web-site that "specializes" in martial arts, & if you think NMB gets weird, basic questions, at least here we seldom have to deal with the ninja wannabee crowd!

 

Ken