Shozui - To Be Or Not To Be

[kissakai]

Hi
This tsuba has been on the NMB before and every one said it was a copy
Only one none NMB person thought it may be OK

Having just bought the Wakayama books I looked into it again
Also I've just had access to an optical projector so I can zoom into the tsuba

These three images are an overall view

 

 

 

 

The next five images are the zoomed images that show the detail
I was surprised at the detail especially the face, foot and rope as these are in minute detail
These made me think that this may be more than just a copy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Camera image of the mei

 

 

Zoomed and stitched image of the mei

 

 

Finally five images of my reference data

Wakayama, Sesko and Haynes

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no problem if the opinion is that it is a copy and I welcome any views good or bad
It also serves as demonstration of a tsuba examination

After just reading the post 'tsuba pointers' there may replies here that would help

 

 

With thanks
Grev UK

 

[Brian]

Copy as in fake, or gimei?

Can you link us to the original thread Grev?

I don't think it is Shozui, but certainly a real Japanese tsuba and not a copy.

[kissakai]

^{Hi Brian}

^{This was the link but only one reply}

^{I had about 4 PM's from some noted collectors and they all said it was a copy}

 

 

^Grev

[peterd]

This looks like a poor quality tsuba not even close to Shozui.

Just my uneducated opinion

pete

[Pete Klein]

This looks like a poor quality tsuba not even close to Shozui.

Just my educated opinion.

pete

[Soshin]

Hi Grev UK,

 

I hope the tsuba you are posting about is from that museum collection. I personally don't find the tsuba appealing at all. I don't think I will ever get to the point of checking the signature on the tsuba in any of my references. Just a friendly suggestion take it or leave it but it is time to move on and look at and discuss better examples.

[kissakai]

Hi

Bob Haynes and other eminent collectors had said this was a fake (due to the mei so was made to deceive).

It was a bit tongue in check that I posted this topic

I’ve used the NMB many times to help me and one of the NMB’s strengths is to help new collectors hence this post.

Comments such as rubbish etc does not really help anyone further their knowledge.

In one of my books it says that initially you examine the plate as if there were no design or ornamentation as a plate base can only provide a poor tsuba.

Then the patina, design, workmanship, shape and finally the mei (the object confirms the mei and not the other way around)

 

Going on these guidelines it would help if observations were along the lines of:

The plate is poor because …….. I have to admit this my weakest area

The patina …….

The hitsu ana…

Sekigane … The only observation I can make is the rounded form rather than the triangular shape

 

The close ups show (to me) that the man is well defined

The clouds are poorly defined

The branch is OK

 

I think this exercise bombed because Shozui is a great tsuba maker and just a quick look at some of this tsuba show this to be 100% fake and no one would go so far are bothering with looking at the mei

Without the mei it is not all bad but it was always my intention to put this on Ebay

 

I should have chosen a different tsuba for this post and as it serves no purpose it can be deleted!

 

Just to give me a little credence for my collection this tsuba image is one from my collection

 

 

 

Grev UK

[Jean]

Grev,

 

When adding a picture, please use the thumbnail option, otherwise the picture is so small that you can't enlarge it you can attach files upto 5,86 MB...

[Soshin]

Hi Grev UK,

 

Please fix your post I can't seen any detail as discussed by Jean.

 

"In one of my books it says that initially you examine the plate as if there were no design or ornamentation as a plate base can only provide a poor tsuba."

 

That statement doesn't make complete sense. The first part is reasonable but maybe the following was ment by the statement: "initially you examine the plate as if there were no design or ornamentation, a poor plate can only provide a poor tsuba". Are you sure your quoting the reference correctly? The examination of the plate is one of the first things that is done in the kantei of iron tsuba.

[Henry Wilson]

I am with Brian in that I think it is a real tsuba but not a Shozui. As Grev says the carving is nice and some care has gone into it but as the educated ones imply it is probably not up to the work of Shozui the Great.

 

As Grev also states the general wisdom (when it suits us ????) is for the mei to confirm the workmanship but frankly the quality in the first place is definitely not there. Basically the workmanship is too bland, flat and lacks the je ne sais quoi of great work.

 

Peace and let's get off our high horses✌????

[kissakai]

Hi

Jean - I didn't use an enlarged image as this was not really part of topic more just for my peace of mind

David - If Jean can see the image albeit low resolution and small I see no reason why you can not see it

Henry - Thanks for your comments but initially I was hoping for more comments that would help a newcomer to collecting especially reading the post prior to mine

Any new collectors learn anything from this post?

 

 

Grev UK

[MauroP]

Hi Grev, I think this post could have been educative, but the bitter reactions it received do not allow to take home any useful teaching. The main point is that you solicited an analytical discussion, but the way educated collectors deal with artistic input is more on Gestalt, not on analysis. The points we all can all share are: the tsuba is a real Edo manufact, but it's gimei. The interesting question now is: why not-so-bad tsuba have a gimei? (to deceive collectors? - I don't think so, since gimei was quite a common practice in Edo time).
Bye, Mauro

[John A Stuart]

Any honest enquiry deserves the respect the subject may not. If it irks you just ignore it and respond to those worthy of your time. Go easy, life is short.

John

[Brian]

David is taking a vacation for his rudeness.

Best way to identify gimei is to know what great tsuba look like. Just like you have mentioned, when seeing some of his other works it becomes easy to see this isn't up to scratch.

The average tsuba maker back then was easily able to create the fine points you showed. However it lacks any of the really great factors.

Again, it is not easy to show what the tsuba has, that means it is average work, but rather better to look at very good tsuba and see what this one doesn't have.

[kissakai]

Hi

I would like to make a couple of observations

In two messages I've stated 'After just reading the post 'tsuba pointers' there may replies here that would help'

This was the opening paragraph:

So, i'm a complete greenhorn at these things, to be honest i've never even held one in my hands so to make a judgment call from afar is always a tricky thing, especially if you have no experience to rely on. I want to start out small, so i figured Tsuba's are proper. Before i buy anything i thought a forum like this is the best place to be. Since this is my first post, it's a pleasure to be here! Since i suck with nicknames, I've picked this one as an homage to our old VOC trading post in Edo period Nagasaki. With my nationality it seems fitting

 

This topic was never just for my benefit apart (from my lack of a good understanding of the plate)

When I see previous comments about the plate such as how hard or soft the plate is and no one can tell me how to test this then I struggle

 

 

Grev UK

[Jean]

My advice:

 

Don't focuss on signature. Learn about Art. Everything is about Art. It is not a question specific to tsuba, if you are art educated, sensitive, you will detect what makes a fine tsuba.

 

Considering the plate, except for iron tsuba, a kinko tsuba by a master will have a good plate.

 

I am not a specialist in tsuba but rather in quality (art), I have never done wrong when purchasing one, were it iron or kinko.

 

Drawback, at the opposite of nihonto where I have spent a decade following a single goal which was having a Gokaden collection, I buy tsuba if they appeal to me with no more goal than enjoying an art object

[Shugyosha]

Hi Grev,

 

I appreciate what you are trying to do with this thread: tsuba aren't my main line of interest and so for me it is always educational when a discussion of the merits of a piece of work takes place, particularly where the more seasoned collectors are involved. 

 

Kudos to you for sticking your neck out (something I'm sufficiently cowardly to avoid) as I feel that it's this kind of effort that keeps the forum ticking over. 

 

Kind regards,

John

[Brian]

It is never about how hard or soft the plate is. There is no such thing as being able to tell how hard or soft it is by knocking it, or tapping it, or how it rings. All of this concerns iron tsuba of course...

It is all about having the knowledge to be able to tell how well worked and/or forged a plate is, and how the tsubako worked it, and knowing what makes a good basis plate.
This can only come with experience and learning. For example, I still know very little about the subject after many years, because I don;t have access to seeing great tsuba here. It is not something that can be taught in a forum or a post. It comes with exposure to good tsuba, and having knowledgeable collectors around you.

So no easy answer. All we can do is maximize the amount of time we spend looking at good tsuba (or art or whatever) until it starts to become clearer. Expecting an answer such as "this is how you tell if the plate is hard, or well worked...or whatever..." is simply not going to bear much fruit unfortunately.

Perhaps we will get some pointers, as we usually do here, but the rest of it is up to us.

[Henry Wilson]

When I see previous comments about the plate such as how hard or soft the plate is and no one can tell me how to test this then I struggle

 

 

Grev UK

The hard/soft metal concept always stumped me as iron is hard so what is all the softness about!?!?

 

I interpret it as the type of sheen the iron might have. To me a soft metal reference suggests that the iron has a lustrous sheen similar to what you see on hard candy or freshly mixed pizza dough, if that makes sense. The sheen on the this tea bowl to me is soft.

 

 

 

A hard metal reference suggests a drier less glossy finish. I hope this helps.

[kissakai]

Hi

After a shaky start I'm happy with the replies especially 'hardness' (my ultimate weakness)

I've read so many books that refer to hard and soft tsuba it seemed important so I've posed this question before but with no success

If I remember about Namban tsuba they are generally referred to as 'hard' and with so many available it wouldn't surprise me is some were tested for harness (we all know some blades have been subjected to various destructive test!

 

Henry's rely 'I interpret it as the type of sheen the iron might have. To me a soft metal reference suggests that the iron has a lustrous sheen similar to what you see on hard candy or freshly mixed pizza dough, if that makes sense. The sheen on the this tea bowl to me is soft.' is a step forward for me and I'll re-look at my tsuba

This may be a controversial view but it is one I will investigate

 

 

Grev

[Jean]

Grev,

 

If you want this kind of info, ask Ford Hallam.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi

 

two of my Shozui (hamano) tsuba

[ROKUJURO]

Grev,

I appreciate the interesting topic!

I have no information if TSUBA have ever been tested for hardness with a ROCKWELL testing device. I would be very interested in researching about this, especially in the subject of TEKKOTSU. But what I can say as someone who works with steel and iron: pure iron is a soft, ductile material, somewhat softer than cast bronze. Steel, an alloy of iron and carbon, can be quite hard if quenched at the right temperature.

We learn that TSUBA have been tested by YAGYU SAMURAI for brittleness, and we know about TSUBA with cutting nicks from a blow of a sharp blade. It is my understanding that a hard and brittle TSUBA  does not serve the purpose of protecting the hand as well as preventing it from sliding forward when thrusting, but in my conviction this latter technique is much less important.

When we discuss about 'hard' or 'soft' iron TSUBA we have to define if we really mean metal property or, as Henry sees  it, surface quality. A nicely polished iron TSUBA with soft contours and a lustrous sheen may well give the impression of softness, but it is not the same softness as on a young woman's cheek.....  

[kissakai]

^Hi

^{I'd be surprised if no one has done a hardness check but you never know}

^{I'm getting a better feel for understanding these hard/soft terms and now think it is a way it may be how the Japanese described the plate that has been mis-interpreted in the West}

^{I have seen quite a few books that describe the attributes of, lets say, an Owari tsuba using identical terms used in an earlier book  so does this come from knowledge or regurgitation?}

^{I originally tried to look for all the main (kantai) points from a school but soon found so much contradiction on overlapping of styles it became impossible}

^{My next thought was I should look at techniques, styles, designs etc which were never used by a particular school  then once a school was ruled out it could be one of the 'other' schools}

^{This may end as abruptly as my first method and time will tell}

^{Even with a great library I've come to the see that only seeing as many tsuba in hand and ideally with a good great mentor can any real progress be made}

^{I am trying to appreciated a tsuba for what it is, but difficult when I try to put it into a classification as it comes down to an ego thing or plain human nature}

^{The ego is happy to have concrete evidence to prove what a great collector he is but the best (in my opinion) just can state 'I like this tsuba because ...'}

^{I'd like to read this post in another 20 years to see if I have learnt much!}

 

 

^{With thanks}

^{Grev UK}

 

 

 

 

[Lance]

I'll throw in a quick two cents and agree about the workmanship angle;:

my understanding of descriptive terms like hard and soft  iron tsuba has more to do with the way the artists  worked the plate and it's finished  appearance. In addition to  the sheen mentioned above by Henry,  the impression of soft iron would be the iron  worked in a way that seems more organic, almost as if it was it was formed by hand  like pottery rather than a hammer.. Maybe tsuba  like  Higo Jingo,  Kaneiye or the many good sukashi  tsuba makers with bones?  

 

 Something seen as being constructed from a hard plate would be more uniform and smooth  In these the texture of the plate itself isn't part of the overall design and acts as more of a canvas for for the design itself like Choshu, Soten,; and some Mito school stuff?  Maybe some others too where the plate looks more "dry"

(Not that it was asked but I don't think either could be considered superior, as there are great examples of both types and after that it would come to personal tastes)

Regards,

Lance

[Henry Wilson]

Great points nicely put Lance.

[Ford Hallam]

Perhaps a few images of 'the real thing' might be illuminating :-)

 

The tree and meandering stream is a classic Hamano feature and worth studying in terms of the technique they used. You'll see this tree, or versions of it, on many a Machibori work but the difference is all in the way the metal has been carved and modelled. As Musashi suggests, study this well.