Shin Gunto identification - What is this?

[Comrade Rutherford]

I picked up an NCO Shin Gunto around 1993 from a NYC flea market seller for $75.

 

It has the aluminum tsuka (no discernable paint remains), there's no Mekugi (no pin in the hole), and the handle will NOT come off (I certainly didn't try very hard, I read somewhere to not even attempt it), so there's no way to read the Mei (if any). A few spots of light surface rust (I oil it regularly now with 3 in 1).

 

It doesn't seem to follow any of the Shin Gunto rules, from what I have seen. First, it has two Ashi, both permanently mounted, it has no fuller and only the habaki has a stamped number, the saya (and no other parts) does not.

 

I have no hope that it has any value, indeed I'd be surprised it it did.

[Comrade Rutherford]

Here is another photo. I have about six, but only seem to be able to load one per post...

[Comrade Rutherford]

Here is the stamped number

[Brian]

Hi (Please sign with a name as per the rules)

 

The nco shin-gunto's have totally machine made blades, and the tsuka is not readily removable. They are almost never signed at all, and not made by a smith at all. The tsuka is held in with a metal bolt and nut, and removing the tsuka would probably serve no purpose. No hamon or hada either.

 

Also, in this case, the numbered habaki and other oddities make me immedately think it is a fake. Typically, Japanese swords with numbers exactly like this on the habaki are found on Chinese fakes, and the other inconsistensies probably back this up.

There does appear to be some age to it, and the wear does confuse a bit, but if i had to make a judgement on it, I would have to go with the fake call.

 

If you look at the fake Japanese swords link in the links page above, you should get an idea of the reasoning, and also take a look at the various military sword webpages that describe this model in detail.

 

Hope I am wrong, but I think it unlikely I'm afraid.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Comrade Rutherford]

I added my name to the sig file, does that suffice?

 

Thank you for your response. I have no expectations that this would be a Japanese Shin Gunto, since it deviates so far from the descriptions I have seen.

 

But it is ... old. I got it in the mid '90s, and it had signs of actual age on it, not age patina. I read somewhere that the fake Japanese sword market boomed almost immediately after The War, so perhaps is could date to that time. So it is an old knock-off, not of recent manufacture?

[eugene walton]

they started fakeing NCO swords 5min after the war, from India mostly

[katanako]

I just returned from Ulan Bator, capital of Mongolia. In the State Department Store downtown, on the 5th floor where they sell antiques and cheesy souvenirs, I found three identical Japanese Army NCO swords and believed they were real. What struck me was the burnished/brushed aluminum tsuka...absolutely no evidence of brown paint. It was grimey, grungy, and a couple of blades had nicks and file marks as though someone went through and filed them. The manufacturers' markings were there and the numbers on each of the blades were different. The scabbards were dinged and scraped.

A week later, I went to the Black Market, which is famous place...a giant flea market thriving with pickpockets. I went to the antique section, and found a booth where they had 3 Japanese Army NCO swords. They were identical to the ones in the State Department Store...all had burnished/brushed aluminum tsukas. I told my Mongolian guide about it and he says that he had bought one, sold it on ebay, and later realized that they were fakes when he started seeing alot of the same ones! No trace of brown paint, dirty and grungy.

The Chinese are now getting smart...probably after making them, they throw them outside and let them "age." Or throw them into a cement mixer with dirt and grease.

If you want a legit NCO sword, try getting them from a veteran or his estate and avoid NCO swords coming out of Hong Kong, China, Canada, Australia, and England.

Remember, if you see an NCO sword on ebay with the tsuka as I have described, be careful! The ones in Mongolia were going for $200.

 

HENRY

[Comrade Rutherford]

Thank you for your responses.

 

From what I've seen online regarding genuine Shin Gunto, as well as Brian's comment, I am sure this is not a real one. Just too many discrepencies. However, since I did get this over 15 years ago and it had some aging on it at that time, I believe it was an older knock-off, not one of the recent Chinese versions.

 

The blade is steel, and does hold an edge, but that's about all it has going for it... The tsuka is cemented on, but it has been coming loose. Hmm.

 

I figure I'll use this as my 'practise' sword, so if I do something dumb as I learn about caring for swords, I'll not damage something valuable. For example, I can sharpen this sword to learn the technique. Also, I can do horrible things to it with impunity, like Brasso!

 

Thank you all, again. This website is a priceless resource for us n00bs to lurk and learn.

[Grey Doffin]

I can sharpen this sword to learn the technique.

Where is it that you plan to use the technique after you've learned it? Not on real Nihonto, I hope.

Grey

[Comrade Rutherford]

I have known too many antique dealers and museum curators to do anything to Real Nihonto. I have a great respect for the blade and the smith and for historical artifacts.

 

I recall one Antiques Roadshow where the viewer was so proud of using Brasso to remove that old patina and make it shine. The curator made it a point to tell them that the patina was part of it's value and they had destroyed the artifact's worth.

 

Yeah, IF I could afford a Genuine Nihonto, I'd want to keep it in a museum-grade location and handle it with gloves, etc. And keep that Brasso far, far away!

 

I look at 500 year old swords and just drool...

[Henry Wilson]

I think one of the reasons why there is not as many old koshirae as there could be is that dealers in particular have a tendecy to take them apart for the individual fittings and thus destroying the complete koshirae. I have a feeling that a lot of dealers (not all of course) are in it for the money which I think is the reuination of anything.