Question About Matched (Theme) Koshirae Fittings

[Henry Wilson]

Ford, I have just ordered that book and look forward to reading it. Is there any such books you can recommend that focuses on pre-Eo period?

 

Cheers

[Barrie B]

 

 

...for anyone who might actually be interesting in seriously exploring the notion of subversive or critical themes in tosogu might I suggest a start is made to study what forms they took in Edo period Japan in other creative areas like painting, printmaking and the theatre. Once you have a proper understanding of the various forms of parody and satire that evolved during that time you may be in a better position to look for examples in tosogu.

 

 

 

Ford, I have just ordered that book and look forward to reading it.

 

I have too..

 

The meaning (hidden or otherwise) of motifs depicted on fittings is a fascinating subject for tosogu collectors… I recently learnt that the motif on one of my Tsuba's depicts the tale of a hermit (who did not go to town for twenty years) that considered the Plum blossoms his wife and the Cranes his children.. can't remember where I read this..

 

Barrie.

[Ian]

Was it this one?

( I know it needs a professional like Ford to give it some magic   )

[Barrie B]

Hi Ian,

 

My Tsuba only has a house, crane and plum trees… 

 

Barrie.

 

[Brian]

Ian,

Are those jewels/stones inset into that tsuba?

If so, I wonder if they are original or added later?

 

Brian

[Ian]

Yes Brian, rubys I think, I had to have a couple of them reset, but I'm sure that they are original. It really could do with a good clean

[kaigunair]

Looks like I've hit a nerve.  

 

By equating the bushi class to the nazi regime is what one would consider an extremist view of history.  That you use vitriolic, condescending,  and ill-mannered language to do it speaks volumes of what your idea of a gentleman is. It is a lesson on how dissenting views can be dismissed through intimidation and ridicule - the nazi and fundamentalists alike would be proud.

 

Getting past your emotional responses, I see why you would hold such a view:  you have repeatedly chose to put the chonin culture on some sort of pedestal.   I can see if you're angling to connect your work to the lineage of these Edo period artists.  Since you like to goggle definitions, look up chonindo and try to provide a historically accurate and bias free report on its origins and connections to the bushi class.  

 

Its nice to see that we both feel we're speaking to a brick wall.  No historical support?  What about the historical examples of the tozama samurai and their involvement in the overthrow of the tokogawa shogunate.  This was provided to counter your opinion that all warriors could be lumped together with the Shogun, and therefore all were an uptight bunch.  What an insult to all those tozama domains.  Subversion for centuries is clearly evident in tozama samurai; any disagreement is not based on historical fact and is an uninformed opinion.

 

What about kikusui themed fittings?  Interesting how you conveniently left any comment on that out.  That you disagree with the other examples (Monkey and gourd is not the same as catfish and gourd when it comes to subversive themes) doesn't mean these aren't subversive, but only you don't see them as such because of your interpretation of them, which is part of the problem for subversive themed tosogu - IT ISN'T OBVIOUS, DUH!

 

What about the parallel idea of judging the number of Christians in Japan based on "acknowledged" Christian themes?  Because this analysis fails, it implies there is some sort of problem with the current understanding of tosogu themes.  A hypothesis as to what is wrong and how to correct it would be appropriate, but when you're dismissing any evidence that doesn't already lead to the established dogma, its impossible to meet your standard of limited evidence.  

 

You seem to like to make sweeping generalizations, remaining silent on inconvenient truths, then stating that no support has been offered for an idea that runs counter to yours.  Working with youth for many a summer, I am familiar with this method of "debate".

 

Your ideas about the bushi and Iki are completely unsupported when you look at the outlandish costumes (and I would include tsuba  themes) of the momoyama era.  They also run counter to the kabukimono (again bushi) which pre-dated the kabuki culture that I'm sure you'd have a lot to say about.  

 

These points being that both chonindo and kabuki had a very much love / hate with the bushi, not the hate/ hate view you would like to re-interprate into history.   

 

I have yet to read any body of literature that purports the idea that machibori tosogu artists of the Edo period were drivers of culture.  Theater actors, screen and woodblock artists, tea practitioners, yes.  machibori artists, no.  The art in machibori tosogu is normally derivative, taken from some famous scroll or print or story, often times a xerox cropped and scaled to kozuka format.  We do have records of real artists dabbling in tosogu, but this was usually a secondary hobby and not where they "made their bones".  

 

And according to the chonindo, neither creativity nor originality nor rebellion was a central tenant, but catering to the customer was if they were to get paid.  So it would be more correct to assume any piece of tosogu was a made-to-spec'd order by a craftsman hired to carry it out vs the western idea of an artist creating pieces only when inspiration hits, and hung in a gallery waiting for just the right buyer (there are always exceptions).  It was firstly a means to put gohan on the table for both Iebori and Machibori alike and the best way to do that was to please the consumers.  Therefore, implying or stating that machibori tosogu artists are the source and bastion of subversive themes in tosogu is not a logical conclusion.  The source of the themes would have been the customers, and for subversive themes, we should look to tosogu made for customers who would have held the most subversive thoughts and motives against the tokugawa - the tozama bushi.  It is this last point where I see we can have a gentlemanly disagreement...or not.

[Ford Hallam]

oh dear....strawman response is so dull.

 

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

[Brian]

"Objection, argumentative!"

"Objection overruled."

We are learning too much from this to end it now your honor!

Right or wrong, there is much in the way of interesting comments to encourage serious thought.

 

- B -

[Guido]

 

As to defending my hypothesis, some areas of study towards suggestions regarding subversive themes:

 

Kikusui themed items.

Monkey and gourd themed tosogu.

Satsuma fittings on "Fuji", where the mountain cap is rendered with 3 separate peaks.

Meaning behind Choshu landscape themes.

 

As Japanese symbolism is right up my alley, and I spent considerable time studying it, I'd love to learn about those subversive elements that I apparently have missed so far.

[Guido]

By equating the bushi class to the nazi regime is what one would consider an extremist view of history.

 

Uhm, where exactly did Ford do that?

[Guido]

But I have to agree, Edo period Japan was nothing like Nazi Germany - it was more like present day North Korea:

 

A completely isolated country, its citizens are not allowed to leave it; a class system with a ruling military and government class, and impoverished farmers; the calendar is counted by the ruling family; a limited number of approved haircuts; possessing a bible is punishable by death; corruption is rampant; there are checkpoints on roads, you need a travel permit to go to another town; books have to be approved by censors; and most importantly, there are no dishwashers.

 

[Pete Klein]

Just got to thinking about this line:  

"What do you think of farmers? You think they’re saints? Hah! They’re foxy beasts! They say, “We’ve got no rice, we’ve no wheat. We’ve got nothing!” But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You’ll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they’ve got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They’re nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do"?  Mifune, 'Shichinin no Samurai'.

 

Of course, it could be argued that the Ronin in the film were exemplary Samurai in comparison to the average Daimyo of the day.

[kaigunair]

Love that movie, one of the best samurai flicks out there...

 "The farmers have won. We have lost." - Shimada

[Pete Klein]

I often watch it listening to the commentary by Michael Jeck as it really fills in the gaps for Westerners.