Appellation Difference

[Pete Klein]

I have this tsuba and find it interesting that the Fittings Museum paper attributes it to Kachushi and not Saotome.  I have also seen similar attributions in older reference books.  Does anyone know why there is this distinction?

 

 

 

 

PS:  this is really large at a bit over 10 cm.

[Henry Wilson]

Maybe it has something to do with the type of metal.

[christianmalterre]

this attribution is indeed strange Peter.

(???)

letting apart that we regularely jump above somehow strange done attributions...

 

this very Tsuba would indeed much better fitt into ranging it to the Saotome, than naming it to a Katchushi origin.

 

i do not agree with this given origami- that´s all i can say from mine part.

 

Christian.

 

(how shall such congrue to others which are attributed to the Saotome then?)

[Brian]

Maybe something to do with the way the spokes are cut or attached? Dunno....we have seen these were each spoke was individually attached, maybe that is more Saotome work?

Just a flying guess....I'd love to see some of those works posted anyways.

 

Brian

[IanB]

I may be being too simple here, but could it be because the Saotome were principally the makers of armour or katchushi?  In other words what is being described is not style of tsuba we normally associate with the term 'katchushi tsuba' but the fact that its maker also made armour.

Ian Bottomley

[Pete Klein]

Thanks for the ideas.  The only things I can think of are either it was the old classification or that it's a step up for a tsuba which is carved and not welded such as this one.  I'll have it at the San Fran show if anyone wants to see it.

 

PS:  if anyone here is going to the San Fran show please stop by and say hello.

[Soshin]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271910508699&globalID=EBAY-US

[Toryu2020]

Pete

Fred W has almost the exact same tsuba, 10cm, thick, heavy, and all carved. However his is papered to Saotome. Would be interesting to see these side by side.

in San Fran of course,

- t

[Ludolf Richter]

Here is another Hozon-papered Saotome on Ebay-GE.Ludolf

http://www.ebay.de/itm/antique-original-Japanese-tsuba-katana-samurai-SAOTOME-/181806883153?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2a5488e151
 

 

[Ludolf Richter]

I just found a second entry for the same Tsuba.Ludolf

http://www.ebay.de/itm/NBTHK-Hozon-paper-original-Japanese-tsuba-SAOTOME-/181800452585?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2a5426c1e9

[b.hennick]

Two different tsuba look at the rim.

[kaigunair]

Perhaps a possible distinction they are making in the papers has to do with the fact that its normally ok if some/many of the spokes are brazed/soldered in Saotome vs the large size and all carved spokes of this particular example, so "Katchushi" to set it apart from the normal Saotome examples.

 

If you have two identical examples of these side by size, and one has brazed in spokes and the other doesn't, it would make sense to try to differentiate between the two (hozon vs tokubetsu hozon, saotome vs ?)  Almost would be two completely different techniques and skills, even if the result is the same.

[Stephen]

https://www.facebook.com/NCJSC/photos/pcb.849910251766900/849910225100236/?type=1&theater

[MauroP]

Junichi,

spokes brazed/soldered in Saotome is a well known fact or just an hypothesis?

Bye, Mauro

[Brian]

Pete,

I remember a thread going waaay back where someone showed the spokes close up, and showed how they were individually inset (and maybe rivetted?)

Can't find the thread, but it is here somewhere. I was impressed at the amount of work it would have taken. I thought this might have been the type of work an armor maker would have excelled at.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: An old post of some (minor) relevance: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12199-saotome-hitsu-ana-kantai-point

[kaigunair]

Junichi,

spokes brazed/soldered in Saotome is a well known fact or just an hypothesis?

Bye, Mauro

 

if you adhere to the schools as currently defined & papered, I would say fact or, more accurately, theory/law as understood when testing a hypothesis.  but the study of these things definitely aren't (yet) even remotely close to scientific...

 

please enlighten if you know otherwise!

 

also, the dogma of the saotome is that it was a katchushi (or branch of) from the famous armor makers.  this paper could be pointing out that terms could also be seen as interchangeable, like someone is saying that what we think of as saotome wasn't or can't be necessary always attributed to the saotome school.  Makes sense if we think that, like much of machibori, without a signature, someone skilled could make this tsuba, even if the design might have at time point in time been attributed to the saotome....  

 

I had always thought of the design as a kiku chrysanthemum.  from this past meeting, it was shared that the design was modeled after the opening on the top of the kabuto (teihei?), one of the 3 things I learned at this past meeting (inside joke).