When The Collecting Is Over

[Davis]

I have observed over the last few years the increasing frequency of Japanese collections coming onto the market  -  mainly at auction.  No doubt in many cases this is due to the death of the former owners.  Viewing these collections can be very interesting and can give clues to the tastes, knowledge and pocket of the collector.

 

The size of these collections can vary from a handful of pieces to many hundreds of items.  Conditions can range from the badly distressed and almost beyond redemption to pristine verging on the immaculate.  Quality/condition usually achieves a high price but generally most things sell well below what they are worth and probably what was originally paid.  It also seems the larger the collection on offer the lower the prices realised.  Auction houses, certainly here in the UK, vary considerably.  Some are well run, with efficient and pleasant staff, research their consignments, provide good catalogue descriptions and supply excellent pictures.  Some don't!

 

So the older collector, as the years advance, should maybe start to think about the disposal of his collection.  Should it be cherished to the end and then left to others ( not qualified/interested ) to carry out your wishes.  Or, while you still have the mental/physical capacity and perhaps some knowledge of the market, start to break it up yourself?

 

We are the present custodians and should endeavour to pass on our "treasures", intact, into the safe hands of the next generation but what's the best way?  Any thoughts?

 

Mick

[Pete Klein]

My books and collection is willed to a member of this board but they will have to wait until I croak to find out who they are. (lol)

[dig1982]

Oh i will take care of your collection...eheheheh...

[Ken-Hawaii]

It's a good question, Mick, & one that at least a few of us have been addressing. In my case, I'm lucky to have a granddaughter who is interested in being the next custodian, & who attends weekly training sessions with my sword mentor & me. She has her own copies of Yumoto & Nagayama, & comes up with some very interesting questions.

 

On the other hand, my daughter-in-law is Japanese, & my grandson - my granddaughter's step-brother - although raised in the Japanese tradition, isn't the least bit interested in our collection. Go figure. So finding a familial caretaker/custodian isn't exactly the most straightforward process, but starting as early as you can is a very good idea!

 

If you can't find a family member, however, it's probably a good idea to start doing research on the resale values of your blades. I keep a spreadsheet that my granddaughter has access to, with the fair market value of each blade that I update monthly (based loosely on what Tsuruta-san is selling), with the assumption that she will probably not like all of what my wife & I have collected. She also has contact information for the sword club that we belong to, with the names of people we deem trustworthy to give her advice.

 

Ken

[Shamsy]

My will has my collection going to a museum, though I hope this won't matter for a long time yet. I like to believe it can then be appreciated and enjoyed by all and will be cared for for many years.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Steve,

Unless you know the people at the museum (both now and in the future) very well, and unless the museum is one with a department that regularly displays Japanese Samurai art (and even better if it displays swords and kodogu), sorry to say but I believe it's true, there is a good chance your collection will rot in drawers in the basement.  Your museum may be different (hope so) but the large majority of museums that get willed Nihonto really have no interest in regularly displaying or properly maintaining the pieces and they (swords especially) suffer.

If you want to kill a Samurai sword, give it to the local museum.  If you want it preserved, sell it to a serious collector.

But maybe your story is different.

Grey

[BIG]

I Read from Senior members, reducing their collections to Some high end items.

 

At the end of collecting, selling to your "House Dealer", isn't a Bad Thing for your treasures.

 

Best Regards

[Ken-Hawaii]

Peter, please clarify what you mean. A "house dealer" doesn't translate very well to the way I collect Nihonto.

 

Ken

[BIG]

Hi Ken,

 

I Do buy from a Trusted Dealer ( Heard that is the Japanese way collecting nihonto )

 

When collecting ends ( when live ends) the Dealer gave it away to Some Trusted Clients....

 

and someone Else take care for Some Decades... Mission acomplished.

 

Best Regards

[Brian]

I agree with those who shun museums. We have seen many horror stories here on the forum about huge collections of swords and fittings lying neglected in drawers for years at most museums.

The huge number of unseen items at some of the larger museums is just disappointing and startling.

Even our own tiny war museum locally here has/had a sword from General Jan Smuts that looked potentially very good and early. I had asked questions about who signed it without success for many years. Then suddenly it was gone, and when I inquired, they seemed uninterested and finally came back with the story that "the exhibition is being redone"

That was quite a few years ago, and it has still not reappeared. No-one seems to care either.

British museums seem the worst of the lot (Ian's museum seems to be the rare exception being curated by people who actually care about these items) but many US museums are sitting on millions of dollars worth of neglected Japanese items.

Please don't leave your stuff to museums. I am not a fan of auctions either, but that is preferable to museums as they at least go to people who want them.

 

Brian

[w.y.chan]

The "British Museum" in London and the "Royal Armouries" in Leeds appears to have a very sound structure of looking after Japanese swords.  When the same question popped up about 10 years ago I mentioned the possibility of sword societies being able to accept and use donated collection for educational purpose.

 

 

Wah

[Peter Bleed]

Having spent my porfessional career thinking about how people treat their "things" and my personal life acquiring stuff. I find this thread very interesting. Thnak you Mick.

Recenttly, Arnold reminded us of the insights of Alsop's laws of collecting and they are relevant here once again. I will add only the comments of Larry McMurty's Cadillac Jack who said, , "Collections are as numerous as clouds and like clouds they form, break up, disappear, and form again."

I take this to mean that letting collections go is part of the the collecting process. Sword collecting seems to be entering a deflationary phase so getting rid of collections will unfortunately involve both emotional and financial loss. I hate it when that happens!

I have to agree that museums are NOT likely to be good homes for Japanese sword collections. As Grey pointed out they rarely have the knowledge or interest to care for/about Nippon-to. They also rarely have the resouces to take care of sword collections. If you want to "donate" your swords, you had better be ready to give them substantial cash as well! And beyond all that, museums themselves are becoimg very fragile institutions. I predict that the next phase of world history will see museums collapse at a remarkable rate. Rather than being places that preserve swords, museums are more likely to be places that are getting rid of them (and lots of other stuff)

Peter

[Grey Doffin]

A good example was posted here a year or so ago.  A young guy who was a volunteer at a local museum wrote to ask about a few Japanese swords in the collection, swords he had been told to research and conserve.  Since the museum wasn't concerned about value and only wanted the swords to be preserved, the volunteer had taken it upon himself to abrasively clean the nakagos so they wouldn't rust.  It hadn't occurred to him that the patina on the nakago was allowed to accumulate over time because it provided excellent protection against rust, and it hadn't occurred to him to ask questions before he took this disasterous step.

There are very few museums on earth qualified to keep Nihonto (The Metropolitan, Boston MFA, those in the UK already mentioned, and a bunch in Japan come to mind), but few of us own swords any of them would be interested in.  The rest of our collections are in much better hands with collectors.

Grey

[Rich S]

I agree about most museums not being knowledgeable enough to preserve/care for Nihonto. As an example from a side line - I'm a knife collector; use to collect vintage 19th C bowies. I bought a book about Civil War (US) bowie knives written by a curator of a museum. It was so full of errors that it was totally useless. I took a black marker and x-ed out the errors - he had pictures of knives by companies that weren't even in business until the 20th C; also some cheapie Imperials that use to be available in 5 and 10 cent stores. Obviously he was an "expert" since he was a museum curator - yeh, right   Pass your collections on to other knowledgeable collectors, not to museums.

Rich

[Shamsy]

Quite an interesting response, not one I expected honestly. However, you have all raised valid points and given me a lot to think about. Luckily there is ample time to consider exactly what to do with the collection.

 

My greatest hope is to pass it down to the next generation of my family, but the children are a little young to know where their interests lie.

[IanB]

A very interesting topic. During my tenure at the Royal Armouries we were fortunate in having a collection of 57 swords, many in polish with papers including two juyo blades, donated to the museum by the family of a personal friend. These have been housed in a special set of drawers in our humidity and temperature controlled stores. Using this resource, together with swords already in the collection allowed me to maintain a display that I could change by rotation roughly twice a year.  I am delighted to say that I was replaced by a person who is as enthusiastic about the collection as much as me, although management changes means that rotating the displays is now a nightmare. The fact that I am still extant has allowed an almost seamless hand-over. I must confess that the attitude in other museums is often far less satisfactory and likely to become even worse in these times of financial austerity. A major problem lies in the interests of the curatorial staff. Many come from a background based on local history or history of art and, because of the funding system, are required to base their museum's displays in that area. A local museum, in nearby textile town, used to have a wide ranging collection of ethnographic items  including a Japanese armour that used to scare the pants off me as a kid. During the 1960's this collection was dispersed by the then curator in favour of textile related items. As a result that museum is now full of looms and spinning equipment that must thrill the locals to bits after spending their working lives in factories that weave and spin.  

Another local museum contains a fabulous collection of armour, weapons , lacquer and such, collected by two local, wealthy families who visited Japan around the 1870's. These items were donated to the museum about 1900, crated up and left untouched until about 1975. When the crates were opened the condition of the pieces was fabulous having been in the dark and stable for such a long time. Sadly few of these treasures are ever displayed, although in fairness they are kept in good conditions.

Ian Bottomley

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Peter, what observational data or mechanism do you see in operation now or in the future that would lead to the "museum collapse syndrome"? I don't question the insight that your professional background might bring to the observation; I'm just curious as to the determinants. Do you care to elaborate?

 Arnold F.

[Dave R]

 Myself, if given warning enough, I intend to gift a few items to friends and sell the rest. The money to then go on riotous expenditure to make my last months enjoyable and memorable. My Brother (God bless)  insisted on having his "Wake" while he was alive and in a state to enjoy it......I intend to do the same.

 On another note, I believe many people and institutions only really value what they have paid for. Personal gifts being the exception.

[Davis]

Thank you for your positive replies.

 

Peter, "collections are numerous as clouds....."  Sums it up perfectly.

 

Ken, my late father had a collection of boxing memorabilia.  My younger brother was a boxer but wasn't interested in it, neither was I.  I inherited it anyway. knowing what it had meant to him I spent a year breaking it up. I carefully selected various items and passed them to his old friends and associates.  The rest I trickled through auction.  Hopefully, all his treasures are now safe and appreciated. Unfortunately, no member of my family is remotely interested in Japanese swords

 

Regarding keeping regular up to date values.  We know what we paid, we might think we "know" what our treasures are worth and we "know" that there is someone out there eager to buy.  That's the easy bit.  It's another thing in reality.  So how can we expect our family or executors to handle things better than we can?

 

Steve, you mention museums!  Grey and Brian have answered as I would have.  I've seen inside the storerooms of some museums.  Water damage, rust, swords forcefully jammed into wrong saya etc., etc.  Some museums have had dedicated, professional staff with an absolute passion for the subject.  Names like the late Commander Newman and Basil Robinson  and in more recent times Victor Harris and Ian Bottomley, spring to mind. People move on though.  Continuing expertise cannot always be guaranteed.

 

Regarding "Museum Collapse Syndrome" - it's already with us.  I know one museum albeit small and specialised that was closed for financial reasons but in reality the reason was political correctness.  I've also seen auctions where museums have consigned arms and armour following a clearout.  The reason usually given is that money has to be raised for building maintenance or some trendy new project.

 

The other Peter, reducing a collection to a few choice items, I believe, is the way to go and taking on the disposal of the rest ourselves.  The burden shouldn't fall to others.  They just won't have the enthusiasm.

 

Mick 

[Rich S]

Hello:

 Peter, what observational data or mechanism do you see in operation now or in the future that would lead to the "museum collapse syndrome"? I don't question the insight that your professional background might bring to the observation; I'm just curious as to the determinants. Do you care to elaborate?

 Arnold F.

I am a life member of the National Knife Collectors Assoc. (which means nothing now). Back in the late1980's they directors decided to build and run a National Knife Museum, which they did. Raised millions, bought property and built and staffed it. It ran well for maybe 8-10 years, when they found out how very much it cost to keep it up and running, it was closed and all the collections (given/willed by collectors) were warehoused. Then they worked out a deal to use the 2nd floor of a big knife retailer's store. That worked for a couple more years, but the deal finally collapsed.  All the great knives that had been donated and/or willed to the museum were sold off to pay debts, etc. Now the NKCA is a collectors organization in name only. No museum and many folks very upset/disappointed that the collections the club had be given were basically lost - not preserved. I think that is what they mean by "museum collapse". I had my collection going to them in my will; needless to say, I have since changed my will.

On a similar note, many museums will have de-acquistion sales to get rid of items in their collections (regardless of source) that "don't fit" anymore. I bought two lovely Luristan bronze daggers that way.

Rich

[benatthelake]

 

On a similar note, many museums will have de-acquistion sales to get rid of items in their collections (regardless of source) that "don't fit" anymore. I bought two lovely Luristan bronze daggers that way.

Rich

How wonderful would it be if this board was recognized as a suitable channel for museum "de-acquistion sales" versus a sale to an individual or an individual's business.  The NMB would ensure both a fair price as well as allow for discussion, learning, and appreciation. 

 

Just a thought!

 

Ben M.

[IanB]

Mick, Ben,  In the UK the rules are that if a museum has an item it does not want, it must advertise the fact around the other museums in the country and should one be interested transfer it to them. This trucking and trading goes on all the time. Should an item have been donated, the donor, or relative if one can be found, has to be consulted on the matter. Then and only then can the item be sold at public auction. Disposal into the wider world is a long tedious process involving permission of the Trustees. When the Royal Armouries moved its collection to Leeds from the Tower of London the packing team were meticulous in dispatching anything and everything from the storage areas in the various mural towers where things had been stored for centuries. Absolutely everything was accessioned and shipped just in case it might be an object of significance. As a result the collection now includes bits of wood, some only a few inches long, that may or may not have been the shaft of a long disintegrated staff weapon. De-accessioning these 'treasures' would involved assembling a board of the trustees and presenting a written document as to why these items should be disposed of. Life's too short.

Ian Bottomley

[Rich S]

Ian -

 

It would be nice if all museums followed that policy. Unfortunately most don't (at least not ones that I know about in the US).

 

Rich

[drbvac]

I haven't pushed it with family yet but do not believe any of my family want any of my small group of blades. If they do or want some or one or two I shall of course leave them the nihonto after making sure they will maintain them for their lifetime as well.

 

Alternatively , I have approached a friend and dealer who is younger than I and hope to come up with a "fair" return/repurchase/buy and sell agreement for the entire collection so my wife or whomever is around to take care of my estate can simply ship them off and get a cheque. It is much safer and easier than trying to sell them one at a time or locally as they would be nowhere near market value and a pain in the ass to do so. I of course expect to get something from the dealer but not what I paid so much as the discount will take into the formula, all are gone, no hassles, "fair" price to estate, AND - the collection will be re-sold and dispersed to the next generation of Nihonto addicts. The price I paid for the blades is the rental fee I have paid to keep them in my house until I die = never as an investment. Hopefully it will be fair and work out well for all involved - I won't be around to see so it probably doesn't matter other than they are maintained - Museums will never get them at least not here in Canada   

[Henry Wilson]

If anyone wants to donate their collection to me, I might be interested.  Drop me a line and maybe we can work something out.

[Davis]

Ian

It was the Museum of Childhood in London's East End that inspired me to collect. Despite the name it housed a magnificent collection of Japanese swords and fittings - nicely displayed.  Hundreds of tsuba were contained in cabinets that had pull out drawers for closer inspection. Around that time I used to write to Basil Robinson asking for his help in reading signatures.  He usually replied with a beautifully handwritten note with the calligraphy highlighted in red ink.  Museums were a joy in those days.

 

Your valuable insight into the workings of the RA is very reassuring.  This should be the gold standard other museums aspire to.  Your witty description of the museum that replaced it's ethnographic collection with looms and spindles I feel, is the standard though these days.

 

I once offered the Imperial War Museum a small collection of rare items - they were not interested.  This lead me to read up on the acquisition/disposal of collections by museums.  As you say very bureaucratic.

 

You also mention the financial restraints local authorities and museums face.  This has lead in some museums to staff cuts and reduced opening times to the public.  I have also heard whispers of some museums wishing to sell off parts of their collections.

 

This has happened in the past.  Do you remember, many years ago The Tower of London selling off a huge stock of ex East India Company muskets/pistols?  I know also that the trustees sold off a considerable number of swords from the Bower's collection at Chiddingstone.  I vaguely remember something similar at Warwick castle?  I think that last year Thomas Del Mar also sold arms and armour from an institution in the U.S.A.  I don't have the references in front of me but I will try to find them.  Ian, thanks for your comments.

 

Brian

A very practical solution.  I like the idea that the price we pay is really the "rental fee". Thanks

 

Mick

[IanB]

Mick, I too remember when the Museum of Childhood displayed Japanese items. They were in fact moved there from the V&A to make room in the Oriental Gallery for a more prominent displays of Middle Eastern items to reflect the growing political influence of that part of the world. Basil Robinson was a Japanophile to his toenails and I remember visiting the V&A as a young lad only to find the gallery under re-display. My father explained to B.R. we had travelled down from Yorkshire to see the collection whereupon he pulled aside a screen and conducted us around personally - an absolute gentleman. 

As for the sale of objects. The disposal of pistols and the like from the Tower arose from the need to raise money to buy an important early English great helm. Remember the Tower had been the nation's arsenal and it still held stocks of munitions that had been either returned as obsolete or had been ordered and for various reasons had never been issued. It was decided by the Trustees that some of the obsolete stock, plus odds and ends of armour that had accumulated, should be sold to raise money to buy the helm. I remember at the time hundred of items like percussion Coast Guard pistols still in greased paper suddenly appearing on the market. Having been through the documentation of that period, every miserable gorget plate or smashed musket was carefully considered by a panel before being sold. The swords from Chiddingstone and the material from Warwick were different. Both these were private concerns, the latter owned by M. Tussauds. Chiddingstone had serious structural problems and needed money for repairing the roof - hence their decision to sell off items.

Ian Bottomley. 

[Marius]

I have a deja vu..

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/11791-how-to-uncollect/?hl=uncollect

[Stephen]

Geeesh so simple! collecting is over when you run out of money,...lol, or as i see it when you buy a ooooh ahhhh item thats fawned over only to not to be able to recoupe 2/3s the cost....simple Simon don't collect any more.

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Friends,

The discussion on “when collecting will be over” has been wonderful. It may have run its course. Still, since Arnold has invited a bit of discussion on the future of museums – especially as repositories of Nippon-to -I would like to discuss museums as collection repositories.  

In my earlier post, I suggested that the future of “museums” might not be completely rosy. In fact, I think that the future of museum is pretty near dire. I also feel that there are very few museums that might make good long term homes for Japanese swords, and further, that very few of “our” swords  are likely to fit in those museums.

I am certainly not anti-museum. I love’em and like to visit them as places to learn, relax, and refine standards, but…

1. Museums are rarely good places to enjoy and observe the details of many collectible objects, including Japanese swords. Placing an artifact in a fixed position behind glass with fixed lighting, so that it is visible by one or two people, without detailed treatment will not provide adequate information.  Next time you try to look at a piece of bronze sculpture, try to look at the BACK, try to assess the armature it is mounted on, or how it was made. In the view of lots of young folks, instead of museums, books and the web provide far richer possibilities for inspection.
2. It seems that museums are fixtures of “old people.” They are still – as they always have been - institutions supported by rich people – most of whom are “old.” Engaging “new collectors” is a residual point of discussion among sword collectors and in   a whole lot of museums and other collectors’ communities.  The tastes, interests, and resources of the emerging generation seem not to comport with the traditions of museums – stable, authoritative, top-down, and passive. They seem to show toys that you can’t play with. In this situation, it is easy to predict that support for museum will fade.
3. It has become clear that maintaining collections is an expensive undertaking. As the cost of maintaining collections  grows, political leaders will have to make hard decisions. Detroit seems to have decided to keep its art, but I expect that the City Fathers will find other options when retired teachers, garbage men, and police officers see their pensions in active reduction. Sic transit Gloria.
4. Intellectual and academic interest in many categories of “museum objects” is fading. Description and classification of “material culture” is NOT what it used to be. Publishing on the “Baskets  of Bongo-bongo”  used to have serious scholarly potential. Maybe it has all been done, but academics are not identifying questions of material culture that have broad scholarly audiences and/or the potential grant funding. Support for these interests is OUTSIDE museums.

It is fair to point out that as scholarship on museum stuff has waned, the power of “Collections Managers” has risen. Today, many museums are run by people who know nothing about their stuff, but absolutely insist that they are trained in how to handle  their treasures in “curatorially appropriate ways” – Tut-tut, white gloves, thank you and  of course you can’t take that handle off. .  .    . Oh, and pleased noted that  I’ve waxed the blade to preserve it.

1. “Museum Quality” has become a very nebulous category. It turns out that very little is really and truly “rare” since Goggle will show you more of anything you might see at a museum. And beyond that, the world seems to be full of neat stuff. Thus, to add to the challenges of museum professionals they are continually presented with new kinds of collectibles.

 

In this situation, I think the future of Japanese sword appreciation will come down  to a couple of well-run and richly endowed museums. We have to support them, but they are rare and exceptional.  The major effort of preserving and appreciating the mass of Japanese swords will have to come from a cadre of individuals who find them interesting.

Peter