Masterpiece Theater?

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,

     I've bought fakes,  I've picked rust.  Plenty of mediocre and even a few keepers over the last 5 years.   This one may become my favorite, it is that sweet!   

 

  This was a phone bid deal that I was stressed on due to lack of decent pictures, but saw some hada and liked the sugata.   Also, it was near my cousin's house and he was coming down to visit so if I was successful he could pick it up on his way.

 

   Wow, this was better than I could have dreamed,  looks like a Nambukucho piece that is flawless in regards to kizu, with Okissaki and a magnificent mokume hada with repeating action down the blade resembling Ayasugi.

 

   Handle has never been off as the owners said it is on tight,  I'll update later on this week when the relatives go and I have time to take it off and take some better photos.

 

Any guesses on what may be under the handle before reveal?

 

Best Regards,

   Bob

[Ray Singer]

My guess is shinshinto.

 

- Ray

[Marius]

Ray, that me be just the picture, but indeed, the hada seems too uniform and contrived to be koto. Also, the kissaki mune is pretty thick.

 

Bob, will you show us the nakago, please? 

[Ray Singer]

Yes, possibly the photos. The hamon appears to be lacking in hataraki and the jihada has the look of a smith emulating a strong hada with chikei by using mixed steel. Not saying it is an Ikkansai Yoshihiro, but he has that appearance to the jihada.

- Ray

[Marius]

I concur. I see no ji-nie here, that one would expect from Ikkansai Yoshihiro, though...

[Brian]

Shinshinto...and very nice. Congrats.

 

Brian

[SwordGuyJoe]

Looks really nice. Agree with the rest on shinshinto. Also, I commend your restraint. If I were in your shoes - family-be-damned - I'd have taken the tsuka off day-one!

[Ian B3HR2UH]

This steel looks a little like that in some Amahide and showa era blades that I have seen. Could it be even later than Shinshinto ? Ian brooks

[Kam A]

Hi All

 

I could just be looking at bad pics that are not truly representative of the actual item but honestly think this is a chinese repo "dolled up" to look the part (I have seen these blades get fake Hadori and burnished shinogiji) So before we get to the blade just looking at the tsuka. . .it is a typical "sausage" often seen on amature attempts and the multitude of chinese reapos seen on ebay.

From what I can see in the pic the habaki is definately questionable in size and shape. As for the steel. . . looks like the mild steel/low carbon style blades found on chinese repos. Typicallly slightly etched (I see actual texture from each layer)  I see no Noiguchi nor an indication of where the yakiba is. I am a bit of a fan of Ikkansai yoshihiro and this is not representative of his jigane nor of Amahide.

I have attached a pic of a Ikkansai yoshihiro as well as probably the most extreme Hada you would ever find on a Nihonto from Gassan Sadakazu. Just some thoughts and I could very well be wrong.

 

Kam

 

Ikkansai yoshihiro

 

Sadakazu

 

[Marius]

Damn! Kam, you are right! Although the picture is high-rez, there is not a single nie to be seen in this blade. Once again, this emphasising the imporatnce of anlyzing nie and not only the folding pattern. 

 

I think you are spot on. This might really be a Chinese fake.

[Ray Singer]

Have to say I am in agreement. My mistake for going in just assuming it was authentic, but the shape is another red flag. The sword tapers and begins to curve in to the kissaki in a strange way below the yokote. The whole monouchi looks wrong.

 

- Ray

[tokashikibob]

Oh oh,  Let me pull it out and take a good look before I head out!!!

[tokashikibob]

   The handle is probably glued on as it is almost imposssible to get off.   Fittings are excellent gunto, hard to belive they are copies, it they are then they have the ageing process down pat.   What a let down,  let me see what the chances of a return are.

[Ray Singer]

Would you share additional photos of the tsuka and tsuba?

 

Thanks,

Ray

[tokashikibob]

Would you share additional photos of the tsuka and tsuba?

 

Thanks,

Ray

Thanks for the interest Ray.   The leather is worn at the right spots and even broken where you expect to see it,  Leather that is covered by button flap looks better than exposed leather.   Tsuka has a wierd rice paper vice same.   Looks like there is some paper inside the tsuka that keeps the tsuka wedged on nakago.

[Ray Singer]

I think it's worth trying to remove the handle and examine the nakago. With the issue of being glued in, perhaps another NMB member has thoughts on how to do that without damaging the tsuka.

 

- Ray

[SAS]

Quote…" Any guesses at what might be under the handle before reveal?" 

My first reaction was "Greetings From China!" but I held back in case my ignorance was revealed. However, this type of grain structure is composed of alternating layers of higher and lower carbon steel. This is not a traditional approach to blade making in Japan. Also, as was noted, the layers show the effects of acid etching, a technique rarely used in Japanese polishing, and certainly not in this way. This is a nontraditional polish, as stones would result in a different appearance. Aside from the strange China-esque hada, the whole package just looks too "newly aged." I stand ready to be corrected if wrong.

[SAS]

PS as far as removing a glued on tsuka, I have (once) used a heat gun very carefully to degrade the glue to remove the tsuka on my Paul Chen Hanwei sword for the purpose of checking the structural integrity of the "nakago", followed by judicious tapping with a mallet against a wooden block on the tsuba.

[Kam A]

Hi

 

I do not think the whole thing chinese, but looks to be a original saya and fittings...ito even looks legit. The shape of the tsuka on the other hand is not promising. The blade I believe is chinese. Just speculation but I would suspect that this was assembled in the west and palmed of as a "my grandad" story.

 

Kam

[pcfarrar]

The blade is quite possibly WW2 period, I once owned a sword with similar jigane and it was signed Kanenaga (no stamps).

[Lance]

I think as Ian suggested, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Amahide mei if you're able to remove the tsuka. 

No pictures, but I used to have a sword by him (maybe 10-15 years ago?) with identical hada,  the hamon was also somewhat overpowered by the forging pattern too.  I  used to keep a little sketchbook of oshigata and tang rubbings of swords that I picked up, and I remember spending a good amount of time sketching the hada and hamon on the Amahide to capture it as it was very unusual to me at the time. (wish I still had it as it would have been useful here)

 

The tsuka looks OK to me, even the raised area along the same'. I've seen this a lot on  WW 2  Seki mounts, instead of more expensive/traditional method of making a handle: , they'd carve a shallow panel and inlay a thin piece of ray skin,  skipping the paper strips along the top and bottom edges, as well as the triangular  pieces of paper that go under the ito.

If you do  manage to get the handle off please post what you find. 

 

Regards,

Lance 

[Kam A]

Hi Peter

 

Firstly I reserve the right to be wrong... especially based on the current pictures

 

Yes I have seen hada like this on a few of Gunto blades including one which looked laminated not forge folded. I do not believe the blade that the OP has presented is one. The jigane is etched to the point it has discernable texture and not polished smooth which would allow us to see into the steel. . hataraki etc.

I have a stack of these type blades that have been donated to the "iron heap of disapiontment" by previous clients that have been burnt in the hopes of finding a hidden treasure. If i have time today I will dig one out and take a pic or 2.

Lance I would say that pattern wise yes to Amahide but then most of the damasc blades out of china typically have that pattern. I have an Amahide here but it is not polished so pointless taking a pic. I have on the other hand taken one from Moses Becerras site for comparison. Also is an Emura from Aoiart whom also had wide and varied Hada.

 

 

 

 

Lastly in regards to the Tsuka the only legit Gunto tsuka I have seen without hisghigumi is the Navel hiramaki tachigashira Tsuka. I have a pic of a low end tsuka and while it has been re-bound the new maki was true to the original and the core was not altered....yes this one had same panels

 

Kam

 

 

 

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

Oooooh..... 

 

First time I pulled the pics up on my desktop.  I might be wrong about this being a legit Japanese sword... (I sincerely hope I am not) - On my iPhone it looks pretty good 

[Lance]

Hi Kam, 

Hopefully the tsuka can be removed and the mystery solved one way or the other, maybe some better pics of overall shape of the mounts and the blade under different lighting too.... .

 

I understand the skepticism about the tsuka but for whatever it's worth  I've come across so many different grades of gunto tsuka, both in material quality and assembler's skill levels (pre-internet and ebay) at flea markets, small gun shows. or garage sales direct from the famiilies, I'm not trying to tout myself as an "expert" just that I'Ive seen a lot of swords that you could be 99.999% sure were never tinkered with and this fits in with those pretty well.  

(Now I'll end up being wrong , although for Bob's sake I hope I'm not  )

 

Best regards,

Lance

[Shamsy]

It could be the lighting, but the tsuba and other metal fittings look artificially aged. The patina isn't usually so strong (meaning the difference between the "rubbed" or "worn" metal is a sharp contrast to patina of the recessed areas. Maybe too much contrast. It looks to be aged then polished up. Notice how the raised areas are polished, even when there is no logical reason why they would have "rubbed clean" (not near hand etc). However, as always it's very difficult to say with any certainty without hands on inspection. If the fittings are fake, they did a fine job with the details. It's only the patina I'm skeptical about.

 

Cover over saya looks good though. A bit out of focus, so hard to gage how the leather preserved under the buttons looks. Paper in tsuka is fine for later war examples. I've also seen genuine examples with glue on tsuka before.

 

More experienced members have spoken on blade so I'll leave that.

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,   Brian has asked me to return my 100 posts signed and framed Nihonto forum certificate and complemetary coffee mug, which I use daily I might add.

 

  Tsuka was attacted with some sort of caulking/glue and nakago shows it's true Chinese birth.         Anyway, I after I send my certificates to Brian I might just start collecting stamps as there are lots of old collections at auctions these days.    

 

  For the new guys I got plenty of Nihonto books including the guidebook , have Sesko's ebooks eating my hard drive space, been to shows and still got a F in class!   So, try to by right from the vet family if your a treasure hunter or, from the board.

 

Best Regards,

   Bob

[lonely panet]

well it can be said the best photos of the worse things can make a model out of a mule.

 

I can only think how some people are feeling stupid. But you cant be to hard on your selves Photos can be tricky.

 

I will prove my point, I will post a true fake in a few days and will see who can pick it

[lonely panet]

ps hahahahahahaha sorry

[SwordGuyJoe]

Tough sledding man! Sorry you got stung on this one - hopefully it wasn't too much.

[Alex A]

Not the end of the world Bob, just a thread that didnt live up to its title