nagamaki - Franco Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Uchiko use is not recommended for swords in polish If you still choose to use it for whatever reason, only use the best and top quality uchiko Uchiko can help a totally out of polish blade to show hamon Microfiber cloth is preferable to uchiko Old dried oil and stains can be removed with a combination of microfiber and isopropyl alcohol Brian Additionally, consider that even when knowing how to properly use 'polishers uchiko', unless one is able to maintain virtually zero finger pressure through the entire wipe the sword is going to be scratched at some point. more comment, Uchiko. When it comes to leaving scratches, sword age doesn't matter, sword provenance no longer matters, Juyo origami offers no protection, even when the sword is polished by a NLT polisher, tough luck. IMHO, not all microfiber cloth are equal, "MicroDear." Uchiko and enhancement. In hindsight enhancement was never in the forefront of my thoughts with the sword mentioned in my previous post. Quite simply at the polisher's direction; using uchiko change the oil once every two weeks the 1st month, then once a month after that for six months. And that's what was done. After that the switch was made to MicroDear. While never discussed with the polisher, I have to believe the polisher knew darn well the effects it would have in bringing out more detail. As for entering the 'uchiko' sword in the polishers contest, it never crossed my mind. At least not seriously.
nagamaki - Franco Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Is there anything to watch out for when using a microfiber cloth and IPA on a sword in polish? I don't intend on using uchiko myself (on swords anyway) but I'm assuming there could be specks of it on a sword I purchase. I believe it is essential along with a nihonto purchase/polish/collecting to buy a quartz halogen lamp as it will not only reveal fine detail in the workmanship of the sword or lack thereof, tosogu too, but flaws as well, and even and including tiny single specs of uchiko left behind. It makes you look over the sword that much more carefully, a good thing.
Ken-Hawaii Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Darcy, excellent article & a good warning for uchiko aficionados. One small thing: speaking as a petroleum engineer, oil may oxidize, but the hardening is caused by polymerization. This happens to some oils much more than others, but given a long-enough period, it can happen to any oil I'm familiar with. Ken
Marius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Franco, I see absolutely nothing in Darcy's comments that would stifle the discussion or ridicule other people's arguments. He has brought forward his points and done this in a very logical way, explaining why he thinks pro-uchiko arguments are wrong. He has done it with a dry sense of humour, true, but that is all. On another note - is a normal halogen lamp not sufficient? To what extent is quartz halogen better for viewing swords? Ken, Very interesting, thank you for the input. For all those, who encounter such polymerised oil - what solvent would you recommend to remove it (without putting the steel at risk)? Will IPA do? 1
pcfarrar Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I'm my opinion these are the best microfibre cloths for swords, they really are great I've yet to find anything better. http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00FE7QFHG/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=187205609&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B008QT9B2A&pf_rd_m=AN1VRQENFRJN5&pf_rd_r=1F66PQZBXEGDY9R4EMXY Only problem is they are real pain to get hold of as Amazon Japan won't ship them internationally. There is a camera shop in the US that sells them but they have massively over priced shipping fees to Europe.
Dr Fox Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Do I use uchiko? yes I do why? because its the way I was told and shown by a Japanese gentleman, who had more sword experience than I could ever hope for. Would those who make swords, or those who treasure the same, deliberately use a damaging process?. On my book shelf, must be at least a dozen references by world experts, advocating uchiko as part of 'sword care'. So it is of little wonder, that any opinion that flies in the face of this advice, will generate a lot of discussion?.
Dave R Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I went to the most upmarket spectacles/sunglasses shop I could find in Leeds and bought my microfibre cloth there, at a very reasonable price and a decent size, 37cm X 37cm. A good camera shop would probably have similar. 99.5% Isopropyl alcohol I got via Ebay.
Marius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Denis, This is called conservatism. It has got its good sides, but... Keep in mind - It is a Japanese speciality to do things according to a certain consensus . Not always the best thing to do. The Japanese sword world is full of orthodoxy, that gets accepted without criticism by the next generation. And the next... and the next... Until it is finally revised. Or not. Why not? Because too many people like the safety and coziness of the orthodoxy. Example: a great scholar said that certain Owari tsuba have a yakite finish. Another one, having read this somewhat poetical description, deduced that the surface was molten to produce this finish (as if iron was wax, mind you). How many scholars repeat this "theory" now without thinking? But that is the Japanese way - "what sensei said is true and sacred". The Japanese are not gods. They do many things wrong, too. Just take attribution blunders. Or dating of nihonto and kodogu based on tradition and nothing else (carbon dating for early swords and kodogu anybody?). I could go on, and I am sure many of our most senior members could tell interesting stories along these lines. So, don't you think the Japanese might be simply wrong using uchiko? As Darcy comes up with facts (mind you, facts, not opinions), people cry foul. Why? Because the Japanese use uchiko, including polishers and other gentlemen. What can I say? :dunno:I would be discouraged. PS: Would they (the Japanese) deliberate damage swords? Well, some enlightened Japanese would answer "yes". Polishers removing niku to made blades "look better"(as per Kojima san), people carving horimono to hide flaws, polishers engaging in competitions where old swords are needlessly polished (as per Nakahara san). High level collectors requesting a new polish, because they want a nice an shiny new one... And so on. Is that not enough evidence of damaging? I do not accuse all Japanese sword people to do that. But true lovers may be a minority with so many people in for the money, prestige and showing off. That is a huge topic in itself... 3
Ken-Hawaii Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I have a friend in Kyoto who introduced me to his personal togishi some years ago. The togishi gave me an uchiko ball, suggesting that I use it religiously on all of my blades. Until now, I didn't understand why he then gave me TWO of his business cards.... Thanks, Darcy. Ken
pcfarrar Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I went to the most upmarket spectacles/sunglasses shop I could find in Leeds and bought my microfibre cloth there, at a very reasonable price and a decent size, 37cm X 37cm. A good camera shop would probably have similar. 99.5% Isopropyl alcohol I got via Ebay. The Microdear cloths from Japan are very thick velvety fibre not like a normal microfibre at all. There is nothing in the UK for sale that is equivalent, if you go on pro camera forums you will see they get constant praise as being the best for lens cleaning. I got mine from Paul Martin several years ago. There's nothing wrong with normal microfibre cloths but microdear just do the job better.
nagamaki - Franco Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Franco, 1) I see absolutely nothing in Darcy's comments that would stifle the discussion or ridicule other people's arguments. He has brought forward his points and done this in a very logical way, explaining why he thinks pro-uchiko arguments are wrong. He has done it with a dry sense of humour, true, but that is all. 2) On another note - is a normal halogen lamp not sufficient? To what extent is quartz halogen better for viewing swords? Ken, 1) Must disagree. There certainly is stifling and ridicule going on in the section quoted below. If we are to just throw out all of the other damage issues and concentrate entirely on the thought that uchiko "improves" a polish, this in itself creates a look that is subjective. The owner of that blade believes his customization of the polisher's work through the use of uchiko has improved it. There are just as many who do not like your after-polish work and will prefer the look after a polisher has polished it. Because, your look, honestly, if it was such an improvement it could be submitted to the polishing competition and why wouldn't it win? Send Fujishiro back a sword I have been putting uchiko on for 10 years and say there you are, I fixed it up for you, now you can submit this masterpiece as it is better than anything you are capable of generating from your shop. Send it to the judges. I don't think that will be happening any time soon... and I don't think any good polisher is going to truly believe for a second that someone with an uchiko ball is going to fix their work so that when it comes back into their shop, they will look at it with admiration and say, "Wow, Eddie in Louisiana sure knows how to fix my mistakes using his $10 uchiko ball, I sure wish we could make them like this in our shop because we'd do a lot more business." So... these subjective "improvements" to me are the same as the subjective "improvements" when someone decides to spruce up some horimono or take some rust off the tang and get it nice and shiny. Those in my boat will look at this kind of work as a ruined polished done by a well intentioned amateur, outside of the accompanying damage that will be on the blade and the hundreds of minute scratches. And we are going to be faced with the decision of, do we send this to a properly trained polisher to get them to fix it? And we probably will. When the sword changes hands into that of an uchiko guy... the cycle will begin again. 2) Not sure, the lamp I use has a quartz halogen bulb.
Marius Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 Franco, I must have thicker skin then you Never mind. I am not religious about this and I believe the problem may lie elsewhere. Provided we have high quality uchiko and we use it properly, without causing hike, we still affect the polish, as uchiko is clearly abrasive. I can imagine that the loss of metal is minimal and that some aggressive kesho (crappy polish in other words) can be even toned down and made look better. This would explain the remarks about the polish "improving" after using uchiko. I don't think, however, that you can improve a truly good polish. We cannot easily brush aside Darcy's argument that togishi would do the uchiko work themselves if their polish were better thanks to it. If we did, we would - by menas of deduction - come to the conclusion that the principle of sabi should apply to a sword blade (or its polished part, to be precise). Well, this does not seem to be the case. If it were, the Japanese would enjoy patinated blades. The problem may be that collectors often needlessly demand a new polish. There is no clear cut-off, of course, no definition of the exact moment where an old polish is detrimental to a profound studying of the sword. In many cases a new polish is desirable and even necessary. In many others good old polish allows studying and enjoying the sword. I think the problem may lie in the inability of so many of us (including myself, I have to say) to be able to appreciate a really good, old polish. While hike and similar scratches, normally associated with age, may be an eye sore, replacing an old polish should not be embarked on too easily. Just a few random thoughts. Forgive me the lack of structure... 1
Dr Fox Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 Denis, So, don't you think the Japanese might be simply wrong using uchiko? Mariuszk Thank you for your as ever considered response. The one line from your reply which I have used as a quote, goes to the root of my thinking. No! I didn't think those who advocate the practice, as being wrong. Then again Darcy put forward points of view, that are difficult to argue with. A case of blind obedience I think! For who better than those who invented the sword, knows best to care for it? This discussion has been had before, but I don't think the case for and against, has been so strongly put until now. Never to old to change, or consider points of view put so eloquently, I shall seriously consider my stance on this. Regards.
paulb Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 As said by others this has been much debated before and in the past caused equally passionate opinion without reaching a definitive conclusion. I think to do so would be virtually impossible. What is, I think, beyond question is that the responsibilty for care lies with the current custodian so whichever path you choose to follow you must be prepared to accept the consequences. One would always hope to never degrade something in your care through neglect or missuse but it is impossible to police, dictate and instruct. One can only advise. I believe that I take good care of the swords I have (probably so does everyone else). I stopped keeping them in oil about 12 years ago. Although I live in a very wet part of the UK the swords are in a centrally heated house that does not suffer dramatic temperature or humidity changes. I took this decision because. despite my almost OCD approach to handling them I could see that I had in the past caused some damage through the use of uchiko to remove oil. I therefore reasoned that the risk of the blade rusting was lower than the liklihood of a numpty like me oiling and removing the oil regularly. I have read with interest comments regading micro fibre cloth and I have some from Japan which I use very little. My preference has been to use super soft paper tissues (non impregnated with anything) to wipe over blades after looking at them. I also make it a firm rule not to talk over blades when looking at them with others. Obviously it is up to each of us to decide how to care for swords in our care. What I do suits me and seems to work and I know that since doing it this way I have had no adverse experience. When I used uchiko (and it was doubtless all down to me) I know that I have in the past marked a blade and since that time promised myself I wouldn't use it again. Arguments about using it on swords that are out of polish are probably valid as it offers a very gentle abbrasive which might bring detail out to a degree. I dont think there is justification to use uchiko on a new polish. I saw in Japan last year at least two shop owners beating hell out of blades with an uchko ball so the prractice still seems prevelent there. 1
Guido Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 I must have thicker skin then you As I said before, this topic isn't exactly some revolutionary new approach. Seven years ago I wrote about Microdear, pure alcohol, what uchiko can do to a blade, etc. (see articles forum). There was no heated debate, emotions running high, or (temporarily) locked thread. As the old German saying goes: "the sound makes the music" ...
Brian Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 Can we put this one to bed now? There is nothing that hasn't been covered imho. Brian 1
Rich S Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 Yes, please close this thread. Everything possible has been said. Rich 1
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