Juyo Tosogu: Ko-Mino With High Rez Pics On Aoi, Funny Nanako?

[kaigunair]

Was looking at the hi-rez pics of a juyo ko-mino kozuka.  Pics are good, so good that and it makes me wonder about the seemingly different nanako when you compare that surface behind the design to the rest of the background.  It doesn't seem to be just normal wear, but that the background not under the design was redone at sometime.

 

Is this a kantei point of ko-mino to have different nanako?  Or is this sort of retexturing acceptable for such a piece (to get juyo)?

 

Just me or is something weird going on here?

 

http://www.aoijapan.com/kozuka-mumei-ko-mino-school-55th-nbthk-juyo-tosogu

[Brian]

Well, they do say it was a kogai converted into a kozuka...

 

Brian

[kaigunair]

Brian, that would make sense  .  The original nanaka was very rough indeed... 

[Pete Klein]

The term is: 'Kogai Naoshi'. Kogai are easily damaged so they took the jita and transferred it to a kozuka frame and blended in the repair as best as possible. It's a nice piece.

[Fuuten]

Even though its function and look changed.. to me (and i might miss the point entirely, maybe because the relief is raised so highly?) it doesn't look that great, surely not in the league of other pieces I've seen..

[Pete Klein]

The 'high relief' is probably why it went Juyo. Only the finest pieces were carved this deeply. The uttori is also in excellent condition. Here is another example of Juyo level Ko Mino:

 

 

[Fuuten]

The 'high relief' is probably why it went Juyo. Only the finest pieces were carved this deeply. The uttori is also in excellent condition. Here is another example of Juyo level Ko Mino:

 

Pete, thank you for explaining one part. But maybe its aesthetic taste but to me its not that attractive.

 

Certainly I am not the person to spend this kind of money for it. Everyone his own

[Henry Wilson]

I would imagine high relief would be harder to make and, being a functional item, less likely to survive the ravishes of time.

I don't collect kodogu but if I were into kozuka I would be tempted.

[John A Stuart]

The repair doesn't bother me overmuch as neither does it being naoshi, but, the carving is fantastic. I'd buy it if money were no object. John

[nagamaki - Franco]

 How many would have bought this piece not papered or green papered? At what price?

[Pete Klein]

Franco -- are you talking on line, at a show, dealer, from another collector, an antique shop?  Can I return it if there's an issue?  All these will change the price.  Let's just say on Yahoo! Japan with these pictures I'd go around $3000, maybe up to $4000.  Please understand, I 'know' it's Ko Mino because I have studied them and own them.  I also know the approximate market prices.  If I buy it then I paper it which involves extra costs.  Juyo?  That's always the big question as the playing field changes each year depending upon what is submitted.  This piece with TBH paper would go for ~$5000 and possibly more at a show to a collector.  It's not a widely collected field like Goto which are a bit easier to turn over.  With Juyo in this condition probably $10,000 to $12,000 is realistic. 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Pete, does where matter, sword show table, ebay/buy it now, yahoo, NMB, gun show, really, what does it matter where? You come upon this piece, there it is on display, no paper, seller has no clue but wants $3000 for it for discussion sake, how many would still buy it is what I'm asking?

No peeking, no hindsight, completely remove that it has any paper out of your mind, ha, and there is somebody looking over your shoulder .......

[John A Stuart]

Franco, At 3000$ it would fly to me guaranteed, deal of a lifetime. One glance is enough to know its basic type, no papers necessary, and they are all 5 figure prices. It also is an interest of mine, bonus. John

[kaigunair]

Pete, does where matter, sword show table, ebay/buy it now, yahoo, NMB, gun show, really what does it matter where? You come upon this piece, there it is on display, no paper, seller has no clue but wants $3000 for it for discussion sake, how many would still buy it is what I'm asking?

No peeking, no hindsight, completely remove that it has any paper out of your mind, ha, and there is somebody looking over your shoulder .......

Before this thread, I would have said no.  I would have seen the nanako background, with similar punches on the flowers, and thought, "poor nanako work" and "hamamono".  It could be this is more evident in magnification, and the nanako looks much better in normal viewing.  Even the newer, repair work seems not as precise as many a high quality machibori piece.  But herein lies my struggle:  that this piece being ostensibly a much older, historical piece, the quality of work, the nanako in particular, I would have dismissed in a later period work is more than acceptable for a piece from this period.  I still have a long ways to go...

 

Regarding the fragility of kogai vs kozuka or ???, the one example kogai I have is pretty stout and having seem many a banged up kozuka around, it makes me wonder how the kogai's were being used that caused so much of the damage that required them to be remounted?  Wouldn't most rough usage also deteriorate the design?  I can understand if kogai fell out of fashion and so perfectly good pieces were remounted as kozuka.  But what particular kogai use leaves the body severely worn and damaged without corresponding wear on the design?   

[Pete Klein]

Junichi -- Dropping distorts the sao and I've seen a lot of them with bent and wavy sao.  Also, they can be bent if not careful removing from the saya or pulled out with the sword and dropping to the ground. 

 

Franco -- I already gave a pretty complete answer wherein I stated I'd pay around $3000, maybe up to $4000 'on Yahoo! Japan' where it's an on-line, cannot send it back situation.  If seen in hand I might go higher but at $3000 it would disappear without a flinch nor moments hesitation.  I wouldn't haggle.  Here's your cash, hands shaken, done deal.  (If I like the dealer, that is)... 

[manfrommagnum]

Did I read the price right? $12, 000 usd? I hope that if you rub it between your fingers Musashi himself will appear and grant you three wishes.

[Teimei]

 You made my day!

 

 

 

Regards,

[Henry Wilson]

From what I recall Tosogu no Kigen by Sasano talks about kogai and why they seem to get bent out of shape. The function and purpose of kogai is undecided but he thought they were used for grooming and scratching places under the helmet as a way to explain the bent out of shape condition many seem to be in. The fact they tend to be made from soft metal he thinks indicates they were intended to be bent. From what I recall he mentions or at least suggests that they could have been regarded as disposable and refitting them to kozuka was a way of preserving and resurrecting fine workmanship.

 

This is all from memory so it might be worthwhiled checking the above book out. Markus has done an excellent translation of it as well. Even thought Sasano seems to be out of vogue at the moment, his work can be an interesting read and good food for thought.

 

Posted from iPhone