SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Report Posted May 24, 2015 Just got this from a smith up in Washington; he picked it up at a gun show a while back for $50. My good camera needs batteries, so I took some photos with my iPad, hope they are of some use to try to ID this blade. 22 inches overall, 18 inch nagasa, shindig slopes dramatically towards the june, which is hiramune. Seems to be o suriage, with the end of the nakago seeming to have been nearly cut through then snapped off, and not filed smooth. Patina on the nakago seems to be oil quench residue as near as I can tell. Someone got happy with the grinder and screwed up the geometry of the kissaki on one side, and the ha. There is an indication of a notare hamon visible to the eye, if not the camera. This doesn't seem like a national treasure blade at this point (pardon the pun), and I plan on trying to salvage it by correcting the obvious flaws and polishing to better see its qualities, unless someone screams "STOP!"
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 Dang autocorrect, that was supposed to say shinogi and mune. More photos.
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 Still getting used to attaching photos, sorry for the mess.
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 There is some indication that this blade was laminated as per traditional blades; I am unable to determine the hada but it seems very fine. If this is a real Nihonto, could this be an example of Satsuma- age suriage?
Jamie Posted May 24, 2015 Report Posted May 24, 2015 Please do not attempt restoration yourself. A properly Japanese trained polisher will be able to tell you if its salvageable. I have no opinion there, as the pics need to be a little bit better to determine. Even then only a togishi(polisher) will know for sure. Since the initial cost was low, and if there isn't much damage from the grinding you wrote of, it might be worth it. You might want to post close ups of the damaged areas and you'll get better opinions
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 Thanks for the reply; I expected that response, but as a Japanese style smith who polishes my own work, and is familiar with what trained Japanese polishing is and what it costs, this blade is unlikely to benefit from either the cost of evaluation or restoration by a Japanese trained polisher. It is not even clear whether this is even a traditional Japanese blade. Specific feedback is appreciated. PS Don't worry, my grinder is still in storage just kidding, I am not jumping off the cliff with this.
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 Last photo was the hamachi, I meant to post the munemachi, trying again.
SAS Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Posted May 24, 2015 There are numerous grinding marks along the entire length of all surfaces including the nakago. I added a couple more photos but what is there is probably representative of what there is to see.Secondary bevels have been heavily ground into the ha and kissaki. One photo shows what looks like kizu from lamination during welding. 1
Geraint Posted May 25, 2015 Report Posted May 25, 2015 Dear Steve, Unfortunately not Satsuma age, that involves removing metal from the mune near the kissaki in order to preserve the hamon, yours seems to have involved removing large amounts of metal from the ha in the kissaki. All the best
SAS Posted May 25, 2015 Author Report Posted May 25, 2015 Ah, thank you, I guess I misunderstood what Satsuma age is…..I thought it was when a sword broke near the nakago and another nakago was formed on the broken end. Hmm, been away from my books too long. Can anyone tell me from the photos if this even seems to be a Japanese blade? What remains of the original lines seem to be better than the average Chinese fake, but I have not eliminated that as a possibility.
SAS Posted May 27, 2015 Author Report Posted May 27, 2015 Upon further reflection, my opinion is that this is a real traditionally made Japanese sword, most likely cut down (broken front end) from a katana, either shinto or shinshinto. It seems to be a well made sword as there are very few openings in the steel. The hamon is nioi in notare form and is present from machi to kissaki. Boshi form is Jizo (Buddha head"). I am open to being corrected and any information or opinion is valued; thank you. I will probably take this to Bob Benson for an opinion when I go to Hawaii this fall.
SAS Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Posted June 13, 2015 New photos, sorry for poor quality, will try my other device ASAP. Any ideas as to school/period? Thanks, Steve
SAS Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Posted June 24, 2015 I have had a number of strange issues with electronic devices, still trying to get better photos; last photos revealed some issues that still needed to be addressed, so I have gone back to chunagura stage to address them. Here is a shot from the last series. Still hoping for some ideas about school/period; I am leaning toward Soshu or Mino, early to mid Shinto. Hope for more responses, please.
Brian Posted June 25, 2015 Report Posted June 25, 2015 No way to kantei a sword in that condition (at least without a shinsa panel) as there is too little to go on. Just enjoy it for what it is, you cannot start trying to attribute schools to a fairly generic wakizashi in an out of polish condition. Brian
SAS Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Posted June 26, 2015 Sugata, suriage method, boshi, hamon, jigane, and the narrow and steep shinogiji and hakomune are no help? Thank you for your reply, Brian. I will certainly enjoy it for what it is; to my eye, it is more beautiful than the Kunisada I bought a while back, especially concerning the condition this one came to me in. With any luck, the koshirae i am buying will fit this blade.
Grey Doffin Posted June 26, 2015 Report Posted June 26, 2015 Hi Steve, You are the polisher; you're supposed to know school & period before you touch blade to stone. Grey 4
SwordGuyJoe Posted June 26, 2015 Report Posted June 26, 2015 ...but as a Japanese style smith who polishes my own work... I'll remove my sarcastic comment, but as Brian said - this is viewed as a no-no...
Brian Posted June 26, 2015 Report Posted June 26, 2015 Think our point has been made adequately before, that we are for preservation of Nihonto, and against any amateur polishing. Lest we offend further, can we take that as noted and carry on? Brian
SAS Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Posted June 26, 2015 Hi Steve, You are the polisher; you're supposed to know school & period before you touch blade to stone. Grey The point of that being the effect that the stone has on the steel, which will be seen on observation. I will never offer polishing services to the public; I do not advocate that "amateurs" polish nihonto; and what I have done to my personally owned sword (purchased for $100) which was received in a badly abused condition was/is for the purpose of doing the minimal amount of work to determine salvageability and worthiness of professional restoration (or not.) I have ten times more invested in books, self-directed study, personal observation of professional polishers at work, and proper Japanese polishing equipment, than I spent to save this blade from further abuse and modification by others. I know far more about the forging of swords and polishing them than I do about kantei of swords of unknown provenance, therefore i requested assistance from members of this board to help identify this rescued blade. Instead i am castigated for having had the temerity to touch a blade to stone. Thanks for the help.
Grey Doffin Posted June 26, 2015 Report Posted June 26, 2015 Steve, You say, "I will never offer polishing services to the public" It makes zero difference to anyone who owns the sword. "I do not advocate that "amateurs" polish nihonto" Unless the amateur happens to be you? "minimal amount of work to determine salvageability and worthiness of professional restoration" Minimal would be at most a touch of hazuya, or better yet having a properly trained polisher open a window. It makes no difference how much you've invested in books where polish is concerned; you can't learn polishing from a book (never happened, never will). "I know far more about the forging of swords and polishing them than I do about kantei of swords of unknown provenance" My point was, a polisher has to know kantei better than anyone else. He has to know what the proper geometry should be, what color the steel should be, what the hamon and hada are and how they should present, and so much more before he starts to polish a sword. You are not rescuing anything. You are taking the very real chance that you will do serious, uncorrectable damage to something important. Not saying this sword is important; we don't know that yet (you don't either). What I am saying is that without proper training you have no business doing what you are. But I know this won't stop you or any of the others in the pile of untrained polisher wanabees. You are so convinced that it is the other guys who'll make the serious mistake; you are the one to whom the rules don't apply. Grey 3
SAS Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Posted June 27, 2015 Grey, the above is your opinion, well founded or not. What have you contributed to the conversation in terms of helping to identify this sword? Apparently in your view I am a dangerous heretic "untrained polisher wanabee", while simultaneously dismissing my own skills and experience, which you are not in a position to judge. If you really looked at the photos in the beginning of this thread, you would realize that hazuya wouldn't do a thing to help the condition of the blade as received when I bought it. As it will never be sold, the person to whom it matters most is me. Do you think I am so ignorant as to damage the sword because I just couldn't help myself and had to keep grinding away at it until it was only fit to be a kozuka? The damage had already been done; if anything, i have been too conservative in what i have done, in the desire to avoid doing what you have already accused me of. I have walked this earth for 53 years, saw my first sword at age 16, have studied them ever since, and have been making and polishing blades for 9 years. Am I now to spend 10 years in Japan studying polishing to determine whether my $100 sword will benefit from $2000 of someone else's polishing? Not.
SAS Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Posted June 27, 2015 Or maybe i should have just passed on buying it and let the former owner or someone else tamper with it further and slap a nice antler handle on it and use it to cut water bottles and zombies." Not rescuing anything"? Your overweening arrogance is obvious.
Brian Posted June 27, 2015 Report Posted June 27, 2015 Nothing to be gained from taking this further. I see on Facebook numerous people amateur polishers discussing their work and displaying their "abilities" And crowds of people gathering around them, "liking" the posts. Including people well established in the Nihonto world who should know better. I would suggest that Facebook might be a better avenue for those who decide they can do a good job at something that others take 6 years of intense training to accomplish. I wonder if Andrew Ickeringill knows he wasted all of that time? So let's keep this forum clean of discussions to that affect, and self trained polishers can discuss their attempts on FB. People forget that ONE little scratch on a blade cannot be filled, ALL of the metal on that side of the blade needs to be removed down to that level. Or you can just polish away that scratch and leave the blade looking like it has speed bumps. Something most often seen on amateur work. Just run that light bulb down the blade and see if you have that "flat water" effect. Steve, you are welcome to participate, and we'll give info if we can on what we see in the blade, but further talk of amateur polishing by anyone will be removed. Brian 1
SAS Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Posted June 27, 2015 Thank you Brian; my intention all along has been to learn more about the sword, not to tout my "abilities". You will not see me anywhere soliciting (the forbidden topic.) The thread was started to help try to ID the sword, please. PS as a 53 yr old disabled combat vet, it is really too late to seek out an apprenticeship in (the forbidden subject) but were i younger and single, i think it would be a worthwhile experience. The intense pain involved makes the activity self limiting at this point, however.
Jean Posted June 27, 2015 Report Posted June 27, 2015 Steve, Nothing can be assess from your pictures, partly due to the pictures, partly due (most of it) to the blade. Kantei could be made from sugata but from a greatly suriage blade it is almost impossible. The suriage is quite crude. Now considering polishing, the most important is "what kind of stones must I use?" The rule generally is "soft steel, hard stone" and the opposite. For this you must know the blade era. Now a polisher, for the same stone grade, will have up to 10/15 stones, each one having its own specifity which is specific for a blade. That's why the basic polisher kit is a booby trap. Only experience will tell you what stone you must use and for this, years of teaching and practicing are necessary. A self taught polisher can destroy a sword if he does not know how to use the right stone. For fun, why not practice amateur polishing on a broken blade? It can be interesting and one certainly can learn things, for example, am I able on the blade to maintain or restore the geometry...but here it stops, above all if we are taking about "blade salvation". This must be undertaken by a trained polisher. That's why amateur polish is frowned at. There are blades which are beyond salvation or not worth it so when you buy a sword be sure of what you are doing and for which reasons. I have seen hundred of project blades which have remained project blades years later and which will stay like this.
SAS Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Posted June 28, 2015 And then there was the professional polisher (who shall not be named) who examined one of my own forged and polished blades and (not in my presence and without being asked to) hit it with a hazuya and scratched the @#ll out of it, I had to repolish the whole tip. Consider THAT. This blade formerly was obviously someone's project blade and revealed their own ignorance by the treatment of the blade.
Jean Posted June 28, 2015 Report Posted June 28, 2015 Steve, Thanks for having illustrated my saying, think only of what could have done an amateur polisher
SAS Posted June 28, 2015 Author Report Posted June 28, 2015 Having repaired my digital SLR with superglue, baking soda, toothpicks, and Vaseline, I am now attempting to take better photos; experiment 1 follows:
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